Drug Smuggling: Customs and Excise Posts (Hansard, 5 December 1984)

§ Lord Rodney
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Chancellor of The Duchy of Lancaster and Minister for the Arts (The Earl of Gowrie)
My Lords, earlier this year 60 posts were allocated to enhance controls of both passengers and freight. These posts were temporary in the first instance, but are now to be made permanent. For 1985–86, 100 further posts are to be allocated for the fight against drugs smuggling. Careful consideration is being given to the deployment of these new posts in order to achieve the most effective results.

§ Lord Rodney
My Lords, I should like to thank my noble friend the Minister for that quite encouraging Answer. May I ask him whether he is satisfied with the development of technical aid for the detection of drugs 1309 being smuggled into this country, particularly as this seems to be the only ultimate hope of stopping this traffic?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I can confirm to my noble friend that we examine every possible method of stopping this deadly and murderous traffic. We pursue new technologies; we do it through personnel and information and crime detection; and we also rely on drugs dogs, which are very effective.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, would the noble Earl accept that the House will, I imagine, have received with gratification the news that there is now a 24-hour service instituted by the police so that all questions of drug trafficking can be reported as a matter of direct communication from the public to the police? Would the noble Earl also be good enough to indicate how far the promise has been implemented in regard to the increase in the number of Customs and Excise personnel who will be dealing specifically with the matter of drugs?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I shall take note, if I may, of the first part of the noble Lord's supplementary question, which was a useful contribution to debate on the issue. As to the specific question, the 60 extra posts allocated earlier this year were additions to the Customs complement in carefully selected locations. A similar process will be followed when the 100 new posts for 1985–86 are allocated in the new year. The overall effect is of a very considerable increase in the Customs preventive effort.

§ Lord Shinwell
My Lords, would the noble Earl not agree that the importation and use of these noxious drugs is the most serious evil facing our country? It is far worse than our imaginings or part imaginings about Scargill, the miners' strike, the possibility of civil war or further trouble in Ireland. Is it not the worst evil of all? When he talks about effective results, is he satisfied with the results? Does he regard them as effective? Does he not think that many members of our police force, for whom I have the highest regard and respect, could be utilised to deal with a situation of this kind, even if it is done in a surreptitious fashion instead of in the usual diplomatic and official fashion?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, as I have indicated, I certainly think that drug smuggling is a very serious threat indeed. That is why—as my earlier answers indicate, I think—we are giving it more resources and more attention. I could never be said to be satisfied while any noxious drugs get in the country at all, but there has been some evidence of success in the fight. In the first 10 months of this year, Customs and Excise—who, if I may say this to the noble Lord, are in the front line here—seized over 250 kilos of heroin, which is considerably more than was seized in the whole of last year: that is to say, 212 kilos. That compares with the total of 40 kilos in 1979. There was a spectacular seizure of cannabis from a ship in the River Crouch, which was one of the largest ever seizures in Britain. Also, so far this year some 200 persons have been arrested, more than 60 of whom were principals rather than mere carriers; so although 1310 we are by no means satisfied, the effort is being intensified considerably.

§ Baroness Masham of Ilton
My Lords, could I ask the noble Earl whether there is a policy with Customs and Excise not to use Alsatian dogs? Also, if that is so, why not? Would the noble Earl not agree with me that they are highly intelligent, highly efficient and highly respected animals with long noses? Might they not be better than other breeds of dog?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I cannot comment and I have no information about the rival breeds of dogs; but I can confirm to the noble Baroness that Customs and Excise have dogs based on a number of regional centres, and they are called out regularly to sniff out drugs. In the most recent 12 months, over 200 dog-aided seizures were achieved. These were worth many millions of pounds at street-level prices, and I think that the "long noses"—if I may echo the noble Baroness's phrase—are doing a very good job indeed.

Lord Winstanley
My Lords, without for a moment suggesting that cannabis should be legalised, still less encouraged, may I ask the noble Earl this question? Would he use his influence to ensure that our already hard-pressed Customs and Excise officers focus their energy and attention on heroin, which is of desperate importance, rather than dissipate their efforts in pursuit of cannabis, which is of very much less importance?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I have to say that both substances are illegal, and the fact of the matter is that most people engaged in drug trafficking are doing so for profit. I do not think they enormously worry what they are trafficking in so long as their profits are high enough. That is why we have to attack this evil wherever we find it.

§ Lord Molson
My Lords, are the Government satisfied that drug traffickers do not make extensive use of the route through the Customs at airports if they claim they have no dutiable goods to declare? If more Customs officers are going to be employed, will they be used for checking those who pass through at present without apparently any check at all, if they claim that they have no dutiable goods?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I may be misinterpreting my noble friend's question; but, if I understand him aright, I think that we would have to measure our undoubted successes and our undoubted need for greater successes to counter this evil against really very considerable disruption to the public—disruption that has been eased by introducing the red and green channel system at points of entry. In fact of course—as so often with crime detection and with catching criminals—careful research, careful intelligence and careful under-cover work is really the most cost-effective way of proceeding.

§ Baroness Ewart-Biggs
My Lords, following the noble Baroness's question, can the noble Minister say how many sniffer dogs are used by Customs and Excise? Secondly, is he satisfied that adequate staff are deployed in the investigation division of Customs and 1311 Excise to take on the ever-growing incidence of drug smuggling?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, on the latter point, in recent years Customs and Excise have made substantial staff savings through streamlining their procedures and organisation, and as my earlier answers and the figures indicate, the anti-smuggling effort has been maintained through careful ordering of priorities. I understand that there are nearly 30 sniffer dogs used and they are based in a number of regional centres. I know of no special constraints on Customs and Excise having more dogs if they would be cost-effective.

§ Baroness Lane-Fox
My Lords, will my noble friend the Minister tell us whether he is satisfied that enough static searches (as they are termed) are made on passengers entering the United Kingdom?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I have already to some degree tried to answer that point. We have to weigh disruption and annoyance to visitors—the vast majority of whom we welcome here very much—and to our own people returning, against the need to combat this evil. The best way to proceed is by tried and tested methods of crime prevention. We will of course keep in mind the point of the noble Baroness about more spot checks; but that, as I have indicated, most of this traffic is a highly organised international criminal conspiracy. We have to proceed against it accordingly.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, the noble Earl the Minister has told us about the steps being taken in this country with some success. Can he say what action is being taken on a government to government basis to try to stop the export of drugs by the countries of origin?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I have this point very much in mind, as do the Government. To give a case in point, we have had a United Kingdom Customs specialist investigator in post in Pakistan since April of this year, and his role is to liaise with law enforcement agencies in Pakistan and to feed back operational intelligence.

§ Lord Kilmarnock
My Lords, is it not the case that the figures which the noble Earl gave us about an increase of 60 Customs officers this year (and I think he said 100 for next year) must be seen against a background of the overall decline of the numbers in the service which is now at a lower level than when the Government came to power in 1979?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Kilmarnock, must recognise that this very important area is but one part of the Customs and Excise functions. The fact that we are increasing personnel and manning levels in this area is an indication of the importance we give to fighting this great evil. That would not of course let the Customs and Excise or any other Government department off trying to achieve manpower savings in very many fields.

§ Baroness Sharp
My Lords, will my noble friend accept that the street price of heroin is very much lower than it was? Does this not mean that in fact a great many drugs are coming into this country?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I do not think that that necessarily follows. Even at lower rates this is tragically a very profitable traffic. I think it is more the evil people reacting to changes in the market rather than anything else.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, does the noble Minister not agree that, from reports he has had from the police and from the medical profession, there is a dramatic increase in drug taking in the United Kingdom? Would he be prepared at least to consider this? Many of the victims and their relatives have some idea of the sources of the pushers, and know some of them personally because of their appeals to them. If they had a telephone number or an address which they could contact anonymously and give information, would this not help the authorities to try to reduce the problem by the exposition of those who are dealing in this evil trade?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, the noble Lord has a point. In fact, we obtain quite a lot of our information in that way.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, the noble Earl mentioned in the course of an earlier reply that we have a representative in Pakistan. Will the noble Earl reply to the question which elicitied that answer which was, "What representations are we making to the governments of the countries involved in this?"

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, we have of course made representations to governments. This is part of our continuing efforts against the traffic. We also have many friends and allies in the Western democracies who are in the same boat in respect of this evil traffic, and we work very closely with them.