HL Deb 27 April 1984 vol 451 cc259-62

11.24 a.m.

Lord Mulley

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows: To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will recommend the appointment of a Royal Commission to consider and make recommen-dations on the functions and structure of higher education in the United Kingdom, in the light of the debate in this House on the 14th March 1984.

The Earl of Swinton

No, my Lords. The Government have initiated a wide-ranging public debate on how higher education should be developed into the 1990s, and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science announced in another place on 12th March 1984 that he hopes to bring forward his own proposals before the end of the year.

Lord Mulley

My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for his considered reply. A number of inquiries are taking place both in the universities and in the further education sphere. I thought that the message which went out from the outstanding debate which took place in this House was that as a matter of urgency the future of higher education should be examined. The consensus view was that something with the prestige and authority of a Royal Commission was necessary. It is well over 20 years since the last Royal Commission, presided over by the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, reported, in very different circumstances. Would the noble Earl urge his colleagues to give further thought to the possibility of another Royal Commission?

The Earl of Swinton

No, my Lords. I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Mulley, said about the debate. It was an excellent debate. It is because of the need for urgency that both the University Grants Committee and the National Advisory Body are instituting these reviews, and it is because of the need for these reviews to be completed before the end of the year that it would not be a good idea to appoint a Royal Commission.

Lord Polwarth

My Lords, in view of the noble Earl's comments about urgency, will the Government confirm that they have had an approach from the University of Aberdeen, of which I have the honour to be the chancellor, regarding the possibility of merging with other higher educational establishments in that area in the interests of greater efficiency, that they asked the Government to set up an inquiry into the advantages and the feasibility of such a merger, and that the Government received this approach over a year ago? However, they have had no response other than a formal acknowledgment. Can the noble Earl say when the university may expect a proper response?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, I know that my right honourable friends the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Secretary of State for Education and Science have been giving most careful consideration to the merger proposal which was made last year by the principal of the University of Aberdeen. I can assure my noble friend that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland intends to issue a substantive reply to that proposal in the very near future.

Lord Polwarth

My Lords, can the noble Earl confirm that their deliberations will be concluded in time for us to achieve something towards our objective by the time of our five hundredth anniversary in 1996?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, I believe I can confirm that on behalf of the Government.

Lord Rochester

My Lords, is there any reason why the need for action in the short term, as the noble Earl has suggested, should preclude the possibility of a more thoroughgoing examination of higher education as a whole?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, I would not agree with the noble Lord that the examination which is being undertaken is not thoroughgoing. It is extremely thoroughgoing, and when it comes out it will be a very interesting report.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that there is acute concern in the universities and in the polytechnic colleges over the lack of clarity of Government policy about the decreasing independence of the University Grants Committee and also about the results of the recent savage cuts in grants to universities generally through-out the country? Is the noble Earl further aware that my noble friend's proposal deserves support? Can the noble Earl say whether the proposals to which he referred will be in the form of a White Paper—that is, whether there will be positive proposals—or whether they will be in the form of a Green Paper which will enable further discussion to take place both in this House and in another place, and in the country generally, on the Government's policies?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, I cannot tell the noble Lord whether it will be in the form of a Green Paper or a White Paper, but my right honourable friend intends to publish the University Grants Com-mittee's submission on the future development of higher education, which he expects to receive from the committee this summer. This will contain a summary of the responses received. He will then take the committee's advice as to whether this should be supplemented by placing any individual responses in the Libraries of this House and another place.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, can the noble Earl say whether there will be a full opportunity for consultation with the university authorities and with other interested bodies in this country before the Government make any final decisions, which are of supreme concern to the future of education in this country?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, my right honourable friend welcomes any evidence which the universities wish to present. I hope that they are now taking the opportunity to do so.

Lord Mulley

My Lords, may I press the noble Earl once more to look at this matter? One of the criticisms which was repeated throughout that outstanding debate, which was made by people with very great knowledge and experience and with a lifetime in education, was about the segmentation of education between the various elements: the universities, the colleges of further education, and the polytechnics. Knowing the vested interests which exist in the educational world, does he believe that any body other than a Royal Commission, with its prestige and standing, can have any expectation of receiving full support?

The Earl of Swinton

Yes, my Lords, I think I do. I believe there is quite a lot of collaboration between the UGC and the NAB. Representatives of each body attend the meetings of the other. In addition, specific meetings were held between the representatives of the two bodies on 19th March and 12th April, during which there was an exchange of views about the future development of higher education. I believe that there is collaboration, rather than a divide.