§ Lord Orr-EwingMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows: To ask Her Majesty's Government how many coal mines have been closed on average, annually, under each government since 1945 because they were worked out, unworkable, or uneconomic.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy (The Earl of Avon)My Lords, the number of National Coal Board pits closed since the nationalisation of the coal industry in 1947 is as follows: from January 1947 to December 1951 a total of 119 pits closed, an average of 24 per year; from January 1952 to March 1964 a total of 340 pits closed, an average of 28 per year; from April 1964 to March 1970 a total of 263 pits closed, an average of 44 per year; from April 1970 to March 1974 a total of 35 pits closed, an average of 9 per year; from April 1974 to March 1979 a total of 32 pits closed, an average of 6 per year; and from April 1979 to March 1984 a total of 47 pits closed, an average of 9 per year.
§ Lord Orr-EwingMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for that information. Is it not a fact, then, that in the Labour Government's time from 1964 to 1970 263 pits were closed, which was an average of 44 a year? And was that not also the time when, at the Ministry of Power, Mr. Wedgwood Benn was the Minister in charge?
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, I believe that my noble friend has his facts correct, although I believe that the right honourable gentleman in question became Minister of Power only at the end of that term. I believe he was Minister of Technology before that.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, is the noble Earl the Minister aware that there are lots of other figures that we ought to take into consideration? For example, between the wars—from the end of the 1918 war to the beginning of the 1939 war—the cost of coal included the loss, by immediate death through accident, of 900 miners a year. Could the noble Earl also give the House the figure of how many of the pits that were closed were later re-opened when they were made safe? Would he not agree that it is exceedingly important to our nation that this vital source of energy should be preserved and not run on the basis of the market system, because coal is inextricably linked with electricity power and the making of steel, which are vital to our nation?
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, I do not have the answers to the precise points that the noble Lord makes, but I would be happy to give him an answer if he were to put down a Question covering them. So far as the mines are concerned, as your Lordships know we are encouraging the use of coal throughout the country and we believe in the future of the coal industry.
Viscount TonypandyMy Lords, is the Minister aware that the mining communities are closely linked and that they are good, loyal, patriotic people? Would we not be very wise at this time to say nothing but to leave those who are responsible to try to reach an agreement? My father was a miner; my brother was a miner; all my teenage friends were miners; and I hate to see one being set against another. I hope that in this House at least we shall not try to score off each other.
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, I am happy to take the noble Viscount's advice.
§ Lord Dean of BeswickMy Lords, may I ask the noble Earl the Minister whether he will take this opportunity to disabuse people of the widespread belief that the mining industry in this country is at present feather-bedded to a greater extent than our chief competitors in Europe? Is it not a fact that British coal is the cheapest produced among that of our main competitors in Europe, and also carries a far lower subsidy than is the case with any of those competitors?
§ The Earl of AvonNo, my Lords, I cannot confirm what the noble Lord says. The average value of coal from our pits is £40 per tonne. That from the best 20 pits costs £28 per tonne. If he were to use the figure for the best pits, then indeed his comparisons might have some bearing.
§ Lord Dean of BeswickMy Lords, I am sorry to come back to the Minister but the latest figures available were given in another place in 1982, and they confirm the impression that I have given; namely, that we are the producers of the cheapest coal among the main coal-producing countries in Europe and that our industry in fact receives a far lower subsidy per tonne of coal than any of our competitors.
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, the noble Lord must take into account the additional support which we give: the investment of £800 million a year, and also the grants of £900 million a year. I believe that if he takes that into account he will not be able to support his arguments. I might also add that coal from Australia and North America can be produced at Thames-side at the same cost as our £28.
§ Lord BottomleyMy Lords, is the noble Lord, Lord Orr-Ewing, suggesting that the Minister is responsible for the closure of mines?
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, I do not think I can answer for my noble friend, but I am sure he was not suggesting that. However, I am sure that the Governments have some responsibility.
§ Lord WalstonMy Lords, would the noble Earl not agree that the most interesting figures he has quoted show that it is perfectly possible to have large-scale closures of mines without industrial trouble provided the general industrial climate is satisfactory, but that when you have this confrontation between employer and employee there appears to be a much greater risk of difficulties in bringing about the desired end?
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, I would not quarrel with what the noble Lord has said: it is part of the judgment that was made earlier by the noble Viscount on the Cross-Benches.
§ Lord Stoddart of SwindonMy Lords, is it not reprehensible that the noble Lord, Lord Orr-Ewing, should at this particularly sensitive time try to make the present dispute a party political issue? I do not wish to do that; but would the noble Earl confirm that the closure programmes in the past, whether under a Labour or a Conservative Government, have taken place against the background of full employment, or near-full employment, whereas the present closures are taking place against the background of mass unemployment, and it is that which makes the closing of 47 pits between 1979 and 1984 a difficult situation and which makes the present closures more difficult as well? I have no wish, and I am sure that most other noble Lords have no wish, to exacerbate the present situation, but may I ask the noble Earl whether he will comment (and I understand he may be in some difficulty, perhaps) on the article on the front page of the Financial Times and other newspapers this morning, which seems to indicate that the Government may very well be prepared to engage in tripartite talks to discuss pit closures and other pit problems at the present time?
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, the noble Lord has asked a lot of questions. May I remind him of his own opening remarks on Wednesday? The barrage of questions which he put to me on that occasion could hardly be called non-political. So far as the labour force is concerned, it is difficult to make comparisons here but I could add that the general recession and the consequential unemployment have affected other heavy industries to a degree which is considerably more than is the case with the coal industry. I am afraid I have not read my newspapers this morning. To start with they did not come, and, secondly, I have been busy on other things.
§ Lord RochesterMy Lords, could we not simply agree that the closure of coal mines increasingly has social as well as economic consequences, and that a settlement of the current unhappy dispute may well depend eventually on finding some reconciliation between those two considerations? May it not therefore be wise, as the noble Viscount, Lord Tonypandy, has already suggested, to bear that point very much in mind when asking questions?
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, I am trying to concur.
§ Lord StallardMy Lords, can the noble Earl give us any information about how many new pits have been opened in the period covered by the Question?
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, the obvious one is the one at Selby, and there are plans for Asfordby in the near future.
§ Lord Orr-EwingMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that in putting down this Question I was anxious that the rest of the nation should hear some of the facts which are not readily available, in that pit closures have long been a problem in every nation that produces coal as pits are worked out? This is nothing new. But as this has been made the excuse by Mr. Scargill for disrupting our industrial progress in this country, is it not a fact that we are trying to be as generous as we can about closures, that even a relatively young miner will get more than £20,000 compensation, and that all redundancies up to date—and even this year—have been voluntary? It is not widely known that they are voluntary redundancies. Also, offers of jobs in mines nearby are being conscientiously made to those who suffer.
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, I do not think the House will wish me to go into any detail, but I can confirm that the redundancy terms are good. Also, I can confirm my noble friend's remarks in the latter part of his supplementary question.