§ 2.39 p.m.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows: To ask Her Majesty's Government whether consideration is being given to establishing a committee of inquiry consisting of representatives of the BMA, COHSE, RCN and NUPE and the DHSS to investigate unemployment in the National Health Service.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Lord Glenarthur)No, my Lords.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, are the noble Lord and the person opposite who giggled aware that a whole range of professional people in the National Health Service, from the British Medical Association right the way through to the Confederation of Health Service Employees, will be somewhat distressed by the curt reply that their request will not even be considered by the Government? It was not a demand. It was simply to ask whether this really humane request would be considered. Is the Minister aware that all those I have 897 mentioned are concerned about unemployment that extends from grades covered by the Confederation of Health Service Employees right through to the junior doctors and consultants of the BMA, and that they thought this was a reasonable request? Will the Minister ask his right honourable friend whether he will reconsider that curt and abrasive reply?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, there was no intention on my part that the Answer should be curt or abrasive. It may have been short, but there is no evidence to suggest that unemployment exists as the noble Lord has described it.
§ Lord GisboroughMy Lords, can my noble friend say how many people are employed now in the National Health Service, compared with the figure when the Government came to office?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, not without notice.
§ Lord EnnalsMy Lords, can the noble Lord say how many doctors and nurses were affected by the 8,000 cut in manpower introduced for the first time ever last year?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, manpower targets were introduced to ensure that effective use of manpower resources could be attained and the targets provide for a cut of one-half of 1 per cent. of the total work force by the 31st March 1984; that was 4,800 staff.
§ Baroness GaitskellMy Lords, may I say that there is every evidence—
§ Baroness GaitskellMy Lords, I am so sorry. Is the Minister aware that there is complete evidence about the amount of unemployment in this country, and it is not true to say that there is no evidence about this? I deeply deplore what the Minister has said.
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, I was talking specifically about employment within the health service.
§ Lord EnnalsMy Lords, does the noble Lord the Minister understand that if one seeks from, for instance, the Royal College of Nursing, the total number of trained nurses who are unemployed, one gets a figure of between 5,000 and 15,000, because they do not know and the department does not know? Is the noble Lord also aware that the Royal College of Nursing would greatly welcome such an inquiry, as I have been assured only today? Why did the Minister give such a negative Answer? Will the noble Lord convey to his right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Social Services the feeling that exists that it is gravely unsatisfactory that we do not know about how many doctors and nurses, available and trained by this country, are not now available for use in the National Health Service?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, the fact is that a large number of the charges that are made about 898 unemployment among National Health Service doctors and nurses relate to those who are transiently unemployed, either because they do not want to work in a particular area, or because of domestic reasons which particularly affect the largely female workforce in the National Health Service so far as nurses are concerned, of which the noble Lord is fully aware. The latest statistics which are available before registration became voluntary in October 1982, show that in September of that year the number of qualified nurses and midwives registered as unemployed was about 7,057; the number registered as unemployed represented about 2 per cent. only of qualified staff and those in training.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, is the noble Minister aware that it is perfectly true to say that there are some disagreements apropos the extent of unemployment real, and unemployment threatened, right the way through from state enrolled nurses to state certified midwives, junior doctors and consultants? The situation varies from one RHA to another and different figures are being given. Therefore, would the noble Lord agree that the wise thing to do would be to have this inquiry, certainly not for my sake and not so much even for the sake of the associations, but for the sake of the patients and the people who provide and serve our great National Health Service, so that patients will not suffer in future?—which is what will happen if we do not examine the alleged increasing rate of unemployment of all grades in the National Health Service? Could we not reach a sensible agreement to have a national inquiry into the real extent and danger of the situation?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, an inquiry would not change the fact that the unemployment to which I have just referred is caused by such things as personal circumstances and, for example, preferences for work in various locations.
§ Baroness Hornsby-SmithMy Lords, can my noble friend say how many of these nurses (and this equally affects doctors) who come over here to take their training in England, then decide that, rather than returning to increase the services in their own country, as we would hope, they will stay here because of the better facilities, although we did not initially expect them to stay on?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, I am afraid that I cannot give my noble friend any figures. There may be some local difficulties about newly qualified nurses, but certainly no serious problems have been brought to the attention of the department.
§ Lord AveburyMy Lords, can the Minister say how there can be any sensible planning in the National Health Service as regards the intake of people into the training schools, when the Government have no information about the numbers who are at present out of work? It is unsatisfactory for the Minister to say, as he did in answer to an earlier question, that unemployment among female nurses does not matter, simply because they refuse to move into the areas where the work is available. That is a highly sexist comment.
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that it was not meant to be a highly sexist comment. It is a fact that those who are married and who are nurses may not find it convenient to move around the country to take up work in other places.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, this matter is very important to doctors, nurses, midwives and to the patients, about whom 1 hope the Government are concerned. In so far as the Minister has tried but could not, by his own admission, give the necessary facts and figures on the questions that were put to him this afternoon, surely the realistic course to follow would be to engage in a sensible collaboration between all those involved to estimate the real danger of unemployment in this great service?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, there is a continuing dialogue among all those to whom the noble Lord referred in his Question, but no inquiry is intended.
§ Lord LeatherlandMy Lords, when the Minister said that there were large numbers of midwives unemployed, does he think that there is anything that Members of this noble House can do to remedy that situation?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, I am quite sure that the noble Lord's intervention is one of many interventions that will help all sorts of factors in this country.