HL Deb 02 April 1984 vol 450 cc469-71
The Earl of Longford

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows: To ask Her Majesty's Government how they justify the continued use for women of the "H" Wing in Durham prison which was considered to be too inhumane for male prisoners and has since been much condemned.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Elton)

My Lords, although the size of "H" Wing imposes certain restrictions on its regime and facilities, they do not render the quality of life inhumane for those who occupy it. In his 1981 report on Durham prison Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Prisons said that staff has succeeded in establishing an extremely relaxed regime within the constraints of "H" Wing and that the accommodation was satisfactory and the standards of hygiene and cleanliness were high.

The Earl of Longford

My Lords, the noble Lord has made, if I may say so, a highly selective commentary on the findings of the inspector. If he had read a little further he would not have found anything so favourable. May I put this question: Is the noble Lord aware that there are only three out of the 36 women, at the last count, who require, even on the Home Office theory, high security conditions? What earthly reason can there be for holding the other 33 women there when they could perfectly well be accommodated elsewhere?

Lord Elton

My Lords, we have a relatively small number of women prisoners in the system and, therefore, a relatively small number of locations in which they can be held. The principal constraint is on places for women in category A and I am at present considering whether we can provide satisfactory alternatives to Durham for them.

Lord Mishcon

My Lords, would the noble Lord the Minister agree that a considerable concern has been expressed about the matter on which my noble friend Lord Longford has put his Question, and that that concern is very much the present worry of the organisation called Women in Prison? Is he aware that he is talking about the very part of the prison which was thought unfit for male prisoners, even though some work has been done to it since? Is it not true that there are other parts of this prison available for women prisoners but which are not yet occupied?

Lord Elton

My Lords, I am aware of the balance between category A and other category prisoners in Durham prison. I am not aware that there is further accommodation available for them in Durham, but I can assure the noble Lord that I share the concern about the question generally.

Lord Hunt

My Lords, could the Minister assure the House that there are no women prisoners at present held in Brixton prison? Does he recall that there were at least three such prisoners when I last visited that prison two years ago? Could he also assure the House that there is no intention of reallocating women to Brixton?

Lord Elton

My Lords, I was not aware that the noble Lord had found three women prisoners in Brixton prison. I have never found any women prisoners in Brixton prison. It is not a prison for women prisoners.

Lord Brockway

My Lords, in view of the unsatisfactory accommodation in the old prisons and the overcrowding in most prisons will the Government concentrate on reducing the prison population?

Lord Elton

My Lords, my right honourable friend has announced a number of initiatives in this direction. He has also announced a massive programme—the biggest this century—for improving conditions in existing prisons and building new prisons; the latter alone running to £200 million and more, which should mean that there is a place of his own for every prisoner in the prison system by the end of 1989.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that we welcome the information he has given the House, that he is personally looking at this matter in view of the concern in the minds of many people that this wing of the prison is totally unfit for women prisoners and, indeed, for male prisoners as well? Could he give the House some indication as to when he will be able to make a further Statement that alternative provision has been made for them?

Lord Elton

My Lords, I hope I did not erroneously give the impression that I think that the conditions in Durham "H" Wing are totally unsuitable for male or female prisoners. What concerns me is those who have to be kept there for excessive lengths of time. That is why I am anxious to find alternative accommodation. An important contribution on this will be the completion of work at Holloway which will make the secure remand wing available. Progress on that to some extent depends on the prospects for upgrading the security for Holloway generally.

Baroness Masham of Ilton

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord the Minister whether there is a problem in exercising for the women prisoners in Durham? Further, why are they not allowed to study with the Open University as other prisoners are allowed to do?

Lord Elton

My Lords, I am not aware of difficulties over exercising. I will, of course, immediately look into this. As to the education programme, it has been considerably expanded since the 1981 report, to which I referred earlier, and now includes, at the one end, basic numeracy and at the other, in fact, Open University courses.

Lord Mishcon

My Lords, in view of the supplementary question that was put by my noble Leader Lord Cledwyn, and the fact that the Minister with his usual frankness has told the House that he has to look into the question of whether there are sufficient facilities available for these prisoners and also whether there is suitable alternative accommodation for those prisoners who are not in need of top security, does he think that it is right that an early Statement should be made to the House? It seems that, perfectly understandably, he has not had sufficient information to give the House on these terribly important matters.

Lord Elton

My Lords, if I may take this the other way round, I am not actually of the opinion that I have had insufficient information to give your Lordships. I have said that I shall inquire about the availability of exercise for these prisoners. Nonetheless, my concern remains and I would wish to keep your Lordships posted of progress; but what I cannot do at this stage is to suggest a date on which to do it, because the moment at which I can most usefully do it is the moment when I have something constructive to report.

Lord Mishcon

My Lords, in those circumstances, if the noble Lord the Minister cannot give a Statement to the House within the next 14 days, does he consider it reasonable that another Question should be put down on the same issue within or at the end of that period?

Lord Elton

My Lords, that is scarcely for me to judge. The noble Lord is free to put down Questions at any stage. If they are Questions of an unusual nature, of course he will wish to discuss them through the usual channels.

Baroness Masham of Ilton

My Lords, is the Minister aware that I already have another Question down on the same subject but it is for Written Answer?

Lord Elton

My Lords, silence suggests that I should answer the noble Baroness, and I am indeed now aware of that fact

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