HL Deb 27 October 1983 vol 444 cc359-61

3.6 p.m.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government on what date they received the proposals of the chairmen of consumer councils for operating guidelines concerning nationalised industry consumer councils; and whether they will now give priority to a debate in Parliament for these proposals to be discussed.

The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Lord Belstead)

My Lords, we are considering proposals which were received from all the national councils between 21st June and the 18th of this month. Discussions will be necessary with the councils and others concerned before the guidelines can be finalised. Any debate in the meantime is of course a matter for the usual channels.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, in thanking the noble Lord for at least a little progress on this particular question, may I ask whether he realises that, if we go back only to the time of the general election, it is some four months since this matter was first raised? Will he agree that since at the moment there is much concern about consumer representation in the nationalised industries and about their prices, it is important that we have a debate as soon as possible, and can he say whether this might be at all likely before the Christmas Recess?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, this is a matter for the usual channels, but I shall most certainly draw the attention of my noble friend the Chief Whip to what the noble Baroness has said.

Baroness Elliot of Harwood

My Lords, may I say that there are an enormous number of people who are deeply concerned about this question of the consumer councils, more particularly because we want to get as many sales as we possibly can for everybody who is producing goods? Consumers are therefore vital. I hope that the noble Lord will do his best as quickly as possible so that there is further development and discussion on this vital matter.

Lord Belstead

My Lords, there is nothing between my noble friend and the Government on this matter. The Government feel very strongly indeed that the function of the consumer councils to monitor what is going on in the nationalised industries needs to be strengthened and placed on a more formal basis. That was one of the reasons why we got in touch with the chairmen of the councils. Having said that, I shall draw to the attention of my noble friend the Chief Whip what my noble friend Lady Elliot has also said.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, may we feel that the Minister will be able to give his blessing to what he is going to say to the Chief Whip? Does he realise that on 30th June the Leader of the House tried to give the House information to the effect that consumer affairs had not been downgraded by the lack of appointment of a Minister of State—I am not mentioning the noble Lord—to deal with these matters? Does he not agree that if we could have a debate on them, it would at least show that the Government had not downgraded consumer affairs, and if I put down a Question before the Christmas Recess, will the noble Lord feel able to give us a date when we can have a debate?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, I can only repeat that this is a matter for the usual channels, but the noble Baroness is very persuasive and I shall do my best.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, now that the Government are proposing to privatise (as they say) large segments of publicly-owned industries, is the noble Lord satisfied that there will be comparable protection for the consumer under the new dispensation?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, I think that there is no better protection for the consumer than to subject the nationalised industries to market forces. But, having said that, the whole point of this Question which I am being asked is that the Government recognise that there are nationalised industries which will remain monopolies, and it is they which need to have an eye kept on them to see that they look after consumers' affairs. It was for that reason that we got in touch with the chairmen of the consumer councils, and that is why we believe there ought to be guidelines.

Lord Beswick

My Lords, does not the Minister realise that, when the process of handing over the present publicly-owned companies to private ownership is continued, there will still be an element of monopoly and the protection of the consumer will still be needed?

Lord Belstead

Yes, precisely, my Lords; with respect, I think that that is what I have just said. That is why the functions of the consumer councils are important, and that is why this matter is uppermost in the minds of the two noble Baronesses who have asked me questions today.

Lord Beswick

With respect, my Lords, the noble Lord said exactly the opposite. He said that when the public industries become privately owned they will he subjected to market forces. That will not be the fact. In the greater part of the cases there will still be monopolies, and any idea that market forces are going to protect the consumer is quite outside the real world.

Lord Belstead

My Lords, perhaps we ought to look at the Hansard record, but I think that I dealt with what the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, is saying in the second part of the answer which I gave to his noble friend Lord Cledwyn.