Amusement Arcades: Controls (Hansard, 26 October 1983)

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Elton)
My Lords, we are looking at the whole subject of controls over amusement arcades and that includes the suggestion that local authorities should have a power to impose an age limit in respect of admission to such premises. We are aware of the concern of local authorities and others on this issue and officials will be meeting officers of the Westminster City and Wandsworth Borough Councils tomorrow to discuss this further. My right honourable friend the Minister of State will be meeting representatives of the Amusement Arcade Action Group before long.

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister for the most encouraging reply that I have yet had from him to any Question 251 that I have asked. In those circumstances, with the leave of the House, I will refrain from taking up further time.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I shall read my Answer again with great care.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, may I join in the noble Lord's jubilation and hope that a similar lot will befall these Benches in due course? Is the noble Lord the Minister aware, as I gather from his Answer he is, that this is a growing evil not least because of the youngsters who unfortunately after leaving school are in many cases without employment? Is he also aware of the growing evil of the fact that these gambling machines are gambling one way only; that is, the proprietor always wins and the person concerned—and this is especially serious in the case of a juvenile—always loses?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, we shall of course take all considerations into view when considering the whole issue, including the nature of the harm that is done to young people and the fact that they are going to congregate somewhere whatever we do.

§ Lord Kilmarnock
My Lords, can the noble Lord tell the House whether the Amusement Arcade Action Group is in favour or against?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, in favour or against what?

§ Lord Kilmarnock
My Lords, amusement arcades?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I think they believe that there should be restricted entry to them, but my right honourable friend will know more when he has spoken to them.

The Lord Bishop of Norwich
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the Church will be heartened by his answers? Is he aware that in this very week the National Council for Social Aid, which is one of the General Synod Councils of the Church of England, is producing a new document concerning gambling? Moreover, in an advance copy there is reference to the indiscriminate spread of gaming machines and the deliberate appeal to excitement and excess. Therefore, the Minister's Answer will, I think, give encouragement to the Church and may the Minister draw comfort from that as well on this most comforting day.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I should be nowhere without the comfort I constantly draw from the Church, but I shall make certain that my right honourable friend reads the document which the right reverand Prelate has drawn to our attention.

§ Baroness Birk
My Lords, is it not true that, in the debates in this House on the last Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, my colleagues and I tried very hard to get some control written into the Act on this very point but we were turned down all the time by the Government? Can the Minister perhaps look back on those debates because he may find that there are some very useful amendments on which he could now legislate?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I am sure that if my right honourable friend stands in need of the advice of the noble Baroness, he will ask for it.

§ Baroness Faithfull
My Lords, can my noble friend the Minister agree that, although we need legislation, we also need to understand the social factors which have led to this increase in gaming machines in amusement arcades? Will his noble friend consider setting up a committee of inquiry, made up perhaps of the right reverend Prelate's organisation, together with the National Council on Gambling, gamblers' associations and the National Children's Bureau?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, the first thing to do is to decide whether legislation is needed. The second thing to do is to take further advice, should legislation be needed, as to what form that legislation should take. I can undertake that the consultations will be very wide if that should arise.

Lord Paget of Northampton
My Lords, would the Minister tell us how on earth they propose to keep enterprising under 16 year-olds out? This brings very much to mind the picture of a friend of mine visiting chapel disguised as an old lady, to the delight of many of his friends. How can we stop that in the gambling arcades?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I think that we are getting rather ahead of the present position. We will consider such problems when they arise.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, will the noble Lord the Minister continue the reputation that he has in this House for gallantry, and not continue to reply as he did to my noble friend Lady Birk? She did not proffer her guidance but asked the noble Lord the Minister to look at amendments that were put down by the Opposition which are extremely relevant to this matter, which were very helpful but which at the time the Government saw fit to refuse?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, of course, I intended no discourtesy and, of course, we shall look at the amendments. But it may well be that our consideration of them will be strengthened by consulting the noble Baroness at the same time.

§ Lord Leatherland
My Lords, will the Minister bear in mind that, if boys of 15 years old are banned from these amusement arcades, they may spend their time chasing girls, and that will do them even more harm?

§ Lord Kennet
My Lords, does the noble Lord not agree that half the battle would be won if he could persuade his right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment to instruct his inspectors to stop overturning refusals by local planning authorities to open these places in the first place?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, we are aware that there is some dissatisfaction with the present planning controls and this can be looked at in our review of the whole subject. But I rather think that what my noble friend has in mind is control by licensing rather than by planning regulation.

§ Baroness Macleod of Borve
My Lords, although I agree with the principle of this Question, does my noble friend really think that, given all the power that would be given to local authorities in this Bill, if it comes about, it would in actual fact be enforceable?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, if such a Bill were to be drafted, it would be for consideration what terms should be in the Bill and how it would be enforced. I agree that that is a matter which we must consider very closely, but I could not possibly give a view on it now.