Agricultural Marketing (Hansard, 22 November 1983)

§ Lord Beswick
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Lord Belstead)
My Lords, we have fulfilled the undertakings given by my noble friend Lord Ferrers. For the new co-operatives of former Land Settlement Association tenants, deferred terms are available for the purchase of packhouse buildings, and we have recently introduced arrangements for selling packhouse buildings at a concessionary price where the co-operatives are unable to afford the market price. All the co-operatives are able to use packhouse buildings under temporary rental agreements until they have purchased the packhouse, or made alternative arrangements.

§ Lord Beswick
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that Answer; but I am bound to ask him whether he is aware that the information that he gives is quite contrary to the information which I have? Is he aware, for example, that in one particular case of which I have knowledge a packing shed valued by an independent valuer at £30,000 is being offered to the growers by the Government agent at £65,000? Surely 112 this cannot be construed as being reasonable or flexible.

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, as my original Answer made clear, we have recently introduced arrangements for selling packhouse buildings at a concessionary price where the co-operatives are unable to afford the market price. It may be that those people who have been speaking to the noble Lord have not done so within the past few days. We wrote to the co-operatives about these arrangements two weeks ago.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, will the Minister acknowledge that in this context the co-operative idea is a valuable one and deserves every encouragement? To the extent that it is within his power, will the Minister take steps to see that the crucial early stages of the transition take place without any punitive financial considerations or burdens being imposed on the growers' co-operative? In order to iron out any difficulties, will the Minister agree to see the chairman of the growers' co-operative as early as possible?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, if I may say so, I do not think that that is necessary. I am very pleased to be able to say that growers on all estates—I emphasise, on all estates—either have, or will have, access to co-operative organisations. Growers' co-operatives exist on seven of the estates, and established co-operatives are being used on the other three.

§ Lord Collison
My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he is aware—as I am sure he is—that the co-operatives are still being set up, or tenants on some of the holdings are still seeking to set them up? The problem that they are encountering is that they cannot find money to take over the packing sheds and the propagation departments, and they are suggesting—and I have letters to this effect—that the prices are much too high. In one case there is a figure of £30,000 for a packing shed and £150,000 for the propagation facilities. That is too big a sum for the tenants to find, and I wonder whether, in addition to what he has already said, the Minister will check back to make sure that the facilities are being offered at a proper price and to see whether the aspect of depreciation on the buildings is also taken into account in fixing the price?
May I also ask the Minister—

Noble Lords
No!

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, of course I entirely understand the concern which the noble Lord is expressing. But I think that I ought to repeat that the communication about concessionary prices was sent to the co-operatives two weeks ago, and I hope that this will put the matter on an acceptable basis.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, will not the noble Lord agree that there has been much disquiet and unhappiness among the growers since the Government took their decision? Will he confirm that? Is he aware that I received information that some members of the staff who have given loyal service over a very long period have been evicted from their tied cottages without being given the opportunity to stay on to find 113 alternative accommodation? Can the noble Lord say to what extent that is true?
So far as the packing stations and the propagating centres are concerned, to what extent does the noble Lord believe that the prices which are being offered are fair in all the circumstances? Can he say whether there has been an independent valuation, and whether time has been given to the growers to make a purchase on the basis of an independent valuation?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, with respect to the noble Lord, whose experience of this matter of course goes back very much further than mine, so far as his earlier supplementary questions are concerned, I believe that there is here a good deal for those who are tenants. They are being offered their holdings, if they wish to buy, at tenanted value, which can mean up to a 50 per cent. reduction in price, which is more than some council house tenants, for instance, are being offered under different arrangements. If a tenant does not wish to buy his holding, he does not need to do so; he is under no pressure to do so. He can continue as a tenant.
Regarding the staff, again their houses have been offered to them on a scale according to the time that they have been working for the LSA, at discounts which, if I may say so on behalf of the Government, I consider to he generous. I am not aware of any evictions. This is of course a matter which I take very seriously indeed, and I shall immediately check on what the noble Lord has said.
The noble Lord asked me a third point which, I am sorry. I cannot recall—

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, it was the question of whether there has been an independent valuation.

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, of course we are at all times advised by our professional advisers, and when we feel that we need to do so, we turn also to the district valuer.

§ Lord Beswick
My Lords, the noble Lord has twice asserted that he has recent information; I think he said that he had been in contact with the people concerned two weeks ago. But is the noble Lord aware that I was in contact with them four days ago and that the information that I have been given is completely different from that in his possession? Therefore I wonder whether in the circumstances, after reading his answers, he will agree to see the growers concerned if the chairman of the growers' co-operative feels that there is a case for discussion.

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, of course I should never decline on behalf of my right honourable friend to see anybody who wishes to come and speak at the Ministry of Agriculture, provided that matters are arranged in the proper way. However, at the risk of wearying the House. perhaps it would be for the convenience of the noble Lords, Lord Beswick, Lord Collison, and Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos, if I were to say that following what was called the Eden Report, arrangements have recently been agreed to sell 114 packhouse buildings to estate co-operatives at a concessionary price. In order to benefit from this offer, the co-operative must be able to demonstrate to the Minister's satisfaction that the co-operative could not afford the market price. The report envisaged that each grower would contribute to the purchase on the basis of £2,000 each, with the amount varied according to the throughput of growers in the co-operative and the amount that they could afford. This offer is also subject to a 15-year restriction on resale. It is those details which have been communicated to co-operatives within the past fortnight.

§ Lord Beswick
My Lords, at the risk of wearying the House, may I ask whether the Minister would confirm that much of this equipment that they talk about is equipment that the growers, the co-operatives, had themselves paid for previously in the shape of establishment charges, so he is making no concessions to them?

§ Lord Collison
My Lords, will the noble Lord allow me to ask another question in order to avoid my getting up again? I, too, have been informed that the prices being charged for the holdings are in excess of the real value and are in excess of the prices at which they would be sold on a tenanted valuation. Should not the members of the staff be offered the opportunity to buy their homes on the same sort of terms as are offered to certain local authorities, which are at considerably reduced rates?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, on the first question, I think I should write to the noble Lord. Lord Collison. It was a little difficult for me to assimilate it. On the second point that the noble Lord put, I can only repeat that I believe the discounts offered, which have been on a sliding scale up to £7,000, have been realistic and generous. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, growers' charges over the years have included an element covering the costs of the buildings and machinery provided by the Government. The charges made are therefore similar to rent, and have been looked at in that light.