HL Deb 21 November 1983 vol 445 cc7-9

2.53 p.m.

Baroness David

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government how many young people have had their benefit or supplementary benefit withheld as a result of refusing or failing to avail themselves of an opportunity of receiving training of the youth training scheme.

Baroness Trumpington

My Lords, the scheme has not yet been running long enough for the numbers of young people refusing courses to be known. Quarterly records are being kept of the numbers of reported refusals and premature terminations and some information about these cases should be available early in 1984.

Baroness David

My Lords, do I assume from the noble Baroness's reply that some young people are being reported for failing to take up places on the youth training scheme and also that there are some so-called premature terminations? Will the noble Baroness perhaps be kind enough to find a different word for this, as "premature termination" is not a very suitable description for people who come off the courses? Will she tell her Ministers that the careers officers are finding it very unpleasant to be involved in peaching on their clients when they are supposed to work by co-ordination rather than coercion?

Baroness Trumpington

My Lords, the expression "premature termination" sounds as if it would be better used in a totally different context. With regard to the other part of the noble Baroness's question, there is nothing new about benefit penalties on refusal of suitable training or employment. The rules are based on legislation which has applied for many years. The youth training scheme is recognised as approved training for the purposes of Section 20 of the Social Security Act 1975. We see no reason for making exemptions. Careers officers do of course aim to ensure that offers of training are suitable for particular individuals. If they find that an opportunity of suitable training has been refused without good cause they ought to report the facts to the benefit adjudicating authorities, as they have always done in respect of refusal of suitable employment.

Baroness Jeger

My Lords, can the noble Baroness say whether she has had time to look at the last report of the Social Security Advisory Committee which suggested that young disabled people should have special consideration and that perhaps the cut-off should not be applied so strictly to disabled young people who may have greater difficulties in getting a job? What appeal do these young people have if they feel that they have reasonably refused a job?

Baroness Trumpington

My Lords, I am aware of the disabled cause. I believe that that is being looked into. As I am not certain of this and should hate to mislead the House, I shall confirm that in writing to the noble Baroness. I take it that the second point in her question is whether there is any point in training unwilling people.

Baroness Jeger

My Lords, if a young person feels that he or she has reasonably refused a job, what appeal does he or she have against the decision?

Baroness Trumpington

My Lords, I beg the noble Baroness's pardon. They have recourse to appeal, as in every other case of that kind. They certainly can appeal.

Lord Avebury

My Lords, when the facts are reported to the benefit authorities, both in the case of refusal to take up a place on a scheme and premature termination, as the noble Baroness says that they sometimes are, is a copy of the notice that is sent to the benefit authorities served on the claimant so that he or she knows what case is made against him or her and can therefore properly present a case before the tribunal?

Baroness Trumpington

My Lords, I am afraid that I shall have to let the noble Lord know about that.

Lord Kilmarnock

My Lords, can the noble Baroness tell the House whether the Manpower Services Commission has made a study of the reasons for poor take-up of the scheme in certain areas? May not failure to take up or stick to a course be due to some inadequacy in the design of the scheme?

Baroness Trumpington

My Lords, I think that I included that point in my original Answer. The take-up of places is increasing by leaps and bounds.

Lord McCarthy

My Lords, may I press the noble Baroness on this? The last information that we had in the House was given on 2nd November and it was that the rate of take-up was about 50 per cent. of the numbers required in a full year—that is to say, 240,000 when what is required is 460,000. This is a rather low rate of take-up. If it is to be further detracted from by refusals and premature terminations, what will happen to the youth training scheme?

Baroness Trumpington

My Lords, as I have already said, the figures have gone up since the last notification of figures. The youth training scheme is on its way to being the success that it deserves to be. The numbers joining it are growing all the time. I think that by Christmas there should be promises of places for all the numbers eligible.

Baroness David

My Lords, may I ask the Minister to tell the other Ministers involved that the careers officers are worried that form UB86Y, which has to be used by those young people who have prematurely terminated their courses, is extremely complicated and difficult to fill in for those not particularly bright in the head? Can something a little simpler be produced for them?

Baroness Trumpington

My Lords, I am interested in the point which the noble Baroness raises, which shall certainly pass on.

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