§ 2.43 p.m.
§ Baroness Lane-FoxMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how many citizens of EC member states were referred to this country for medical treatment from June 1979 to the present day.
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, since the beginning of 1979 some 1,100 patients have been referred here under the Community regulations. This figure does not include private patients.
§ Baroness Lane-FoxMy Lords, in thanking my noble friend for that interesting, although perhaps slightly disconcerting reply, can she say whether the Government are entirely satisfied with the existing reciprocal provisions for health available to British travellers in EC countries?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, in answering my noble friend, I am not quite sure why she is bewildered, because it is a tribute to the National Health Service, and in particular to its specialist services, that it attracts so many referrals. With regard to the second point concerning reciprocal arrangements, I believe that about 20 patients a year from this country have gone abroad for treatment.
Lord Wallace of CoslanyMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that I just do not understand the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, being somewhat disconcerted by the reply? It is a good thing that people can come to Britain for treatment just as much as people can go to EC countries for treatment. The noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington, said that about 20 cases a year had been referred to EC countries for treatment. Can she give the figure for the number of people treated on holiday due to accidents and the many other causes?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, referring back to the other question, it is slightly over 20 cases each year—a total of about 120 in the period covered by the Question; that is, since 1979. With regard to the second part of the noble Lord's question: no, I cannot.
Lord Paget of NorthamptonMy Lords, surely referrals occur because the treatment cannot be obtained in the home countries. It is a tremendous tribute to our National Health Service that it is so widely desired.
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, I do not think that there was a questions there. but I have already paid tribute to our National Health Service.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, can the noble Baroness answer one question, if not now then by either writing to me or publishing an answer in Hansard? The principle of reciprocity started in the Council of Europe with about 10 or 11 countries, from which it has since grown as this country has joined the EC, and 5 now stretches into some states of America. That shows that this is possibly another great aspect of our NHS, as the noble Baroness rightly said, and it shows a behaviour amongst mankind of which we have never seen the like before. Can the noble Baroness please supply the actual percentage statistics?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord: the percentage statistics of what?
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, in the reciprocity agreement some illnesses are not reciprocal. Will the noble Baroness take on board that the degree of reciprocity varies from country to country because it excludes certainillnesses, but generally no accidents—are they all included?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, the original Question referred to the EC. The United States and other countries outside the EC do not come into this particular Question.
§ Lord LeatherlandMy Lords, as the Government are closing down a large number of hospitals in this country, will our hospitals be able to continue taking in these overseas patients?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, certainly they will, because in no case do they jump the National Health Service queues. When people wish to come to this country for treatment they have to wait their turn.
§ Baroness Lane-FoxMy Lords, may I ask whether my, noble friend is aware that I was slightly disconcerted about her original Answer because I felt we ought to be absolutely sure that, as such a large number of people are coming from abroad to this country, the reciprocal arrangements are all right for our visitors going overseas? Further, may I also ask whether disabled travellers from this country to EC countries are able to get the same equipment and amenities that disabled patients who visit this country from the EC can obtain?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, with regard to the first part of the question, 1,100 people since 1979 does not seem to me to be a vast number. With regard to the second part, that is another question which I shall be delighted to answer if my noble friend can table it on another occasion.
Lord Wallace of CoslanyMy Lords, I have one further question for the noble Baroness, and I am sure she will not mind answering. There is a very important point on EC agreements. Before anyone proceeds abroad from this country a somewhat complicated form must be completed. Does the noble Baroness agree that that must be stressed?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, if a patient arrives without the necessary form, the department's advice to hospitals is to charge the patient as an overseas visitor but that the cost should be refunded if the form is subsequently received.