§ 3.22 p.m.
§ Lord GridleyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what was the number of uneconomic pits in the coal industry closed in the period 1974–79, and what was the number of such pits closed 1979–82.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy (The Earl of Avon)My Lords, the National Coal Board tell me that between April 1974 and March 1979 32 pits closed, while between April 1979 and March 1983 31 pits closed. The finances of individual pits are, of course, a matter for the National Coal Board.
§ Lord GridleyMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. Is it not a fact that at the present time too much coal is being produced from uneconomic pits at prices which the public and industry are unable to pay? Does this not result in a loss to the National Coal Board of £2 million each day?
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, there is indeed an over-abundance of coal, and it is therefore even more vital for the long-term future of the industry that it should return to profitability. The National Coal Board has made it quite clear that this must mean determined action to deal with the problem of the industry's economic tail. I believe there is now widespread recognition of that fact.
§ Lord ShinwellMy Lords, when are we going to stop this nonsense of closing down pits that are uneconomic? Is the noble Earl aware that at the beginning of the last world war, in 1940, many pits were closed down on the ground that they were unprofitable? Indeed, there was very little done in the way of geological research to overcome the apparent difficulties. Is he further aware that, as a result, in 1942—I am dealing with facts, not imagination—there was a coal crisis because of the coal shortage? I was made aware of that by Mr. Winston Churchill himself, who was very much disturbed about the situation. Should we not be very careful and think ahead? Because there could unfortunately be a conflict in which we require all the energy that is possible. In those circumstances, therefore, does the noble Earl agree that coal is essential so we must sometimes be prepared to accept a part of industry that is uneconomic and unprofitable because of the dangers that lie ahead if we do not?
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, the noble Lord, in his wisdom, goes back earlier than my statistics, which only start in 1947, when there were 958 pits as opposed to the 259 pits in 1974.The point is, of course, that the new pits coming on stream are producing a lot of coal at a much more economic price. There is, therefore, obviously, a need to close some uneconomic pits. About 12 per cent, of pits are costing £275 million a year. Someone must pay for that. There is a balance to be struck, and we believe that the new management of the NCB is looking at this balance in the right light.
§ Lord ShinwellMy Lords, if the noble Earl is saying that the Labour Government was also responsible, is he aware that I am ready to accept that? We were as much to blame later on, after the war, in closing down so-called uneconomic pits as the previous Chamberlain Government.
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, I was not trying to put the blame anywhere, but just to get my historical facts right.
§ Lord EzraMy Lords, will the noble Earl kindly say, bearing in mind that closures of pits which are past their prime is only one part of the strategy for the coal mining industry, that the Government will maintain the policy of substantial investment in new capacity to replace the capacity which is taken out? Moreover, will the noble Earl confirm that the Government will maintain investment in new and advanced coal mining technology, in which Britain at the moment leads the world?
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, the noble Lord is, of course, the expert in this House on the subject. I am happy to confirm that investment will continue as it has in the past.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, will the noble Earl agree that the mountain of surplus coal mentioned from the Conservative Back-Benches is nowhere near as large, or as expensive, as the mountain of grain that the Government are subsidising all over the country?
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, I am happy to cross swords with the noble Lord on coal, but I cannot be drawn on this other subject.