HL Deb 15 November 1983 vol 444 cc1151-3

3.2 p.m.

Lord Avebury

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what reports they have received about the build-up of Indonesian troops in East Timor since the middle of August, and the military operations which have been undertaken there by Indonesia.

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, firm information is hard to come by. But it is clear that the ceasefire in East Timor which had been in effect since the beginning of the year has come to an end.

Lord Avebury

My Lords, has not the Foreign Secretary said in correspondence with a number of people that there was a substantial build-up of Indonesian troops in East Timor? Has the noble Lord studied reports that the number of such troops may amount to between 10,000 and 20,000, and that helicopters and planes are being deployed in the attack on the people of East Timor which—does the noble Lord agree?—was clearly premeditated? Will he bear in mind the fact that the International Committee of the Red Cross was prevented from operating in the territory from July onwards, just before the attack took place?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, Indonesia has certainly sent extra troops to East Timor; but, as the noble Lord himself made clear, estimates of the number vary. It seems unlikely that operations have been extensive, given the small number of active Fretilin guerrillas involved, and we would expect that military operations will have to end shortly when the rainy season begins. As regards relief organisations, yes I am aware, and I am aware that my right honourable friend is aware, of the situation concerning the ICRC, but it seems that a number of other relief organisations continue to operate in East Timor and these include the United States Catholic Relief and UNICEF.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, in view of this unprovoked aggression and virtual annexation of East Timor, which I understand the Government have condemned, and the appalling violations of human rights—again, I understand that over 100,000 people in East Timor have been killed—why are the Government still selling armaments to Indonesia? Can the noble Lord say why the Government failed to support the United Nations Resolution supporting self-determination for East Timor?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, the figures to which the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos, refers are his figures. They are speculative. Of course, we will continue to watch the situation closely but no grounds exist at present for formal representation. The noble Lord may like to know that we are in touch with the Indonesian Government and they are fully aware of our interest in this matter. As regards arms sales, this is a difficult matter. Many factors must be taken into account, including the effect of such sales on employment in the United Kingdom. As the noble Lord knows, all sales require an export licence and each application is carefully considered.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, the noble Lord referred to my figures as speculative. Does he not agree however that serious violations of human rights have taken place in East Timor? In those circumstances how does he justify the sale of armaments by Great Britain to Indonesia, which is guilty of these violations?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, it would not be appropriate to adopt any arms embargo against Indonesia. We have excellent relations with Indonesia. Furthermore, there is no mandatory United Nations arms embargo against Indonesia.

Lord Avebury

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the total number of people who have perished in East Timor since the occupation by Indonesia in 1975 is estimated by competent authorities at between 150,000 and 200,000. Bearing in mind this enormous carnage committed by an aggressor nation on this tiny territory, does not the noble Lord think that reasons of economic self-interest pale into insignificance? Will he reflect on the remarks that he has just made to the House when next the question of American arms sales to Argentina occurs, because surely there is a parallel there? In both cases aggression was committed on a small and defenceless people; but in one case the Government are saying that the Americans should not supply arms to the aggressor but are busily supplying arms to the aggressor in the other situation.

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, I certainly do not intend getting involved in any discussion about Argentina which is the subject of another question altogether. I have nothing to add to what I said earlier.

Lord Leatherland

My Lords, would the Minister agree that he is probably a little optimistic in suggesting that the rainy season will stop these operations? Is he further aware that those of us who were in the Somme in 1915 were standing up to our waists in water for weeks on end and that did not stop operations?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, I am interested to hear the noble Lord's anecdotes; but I think there is evidence to support what I said, that the coming of the rainy season should end these operations.