§ 2.48 p.m.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how many cases of disciplinary action were taken by the authorities in Holloway Prison in the years 1980, 1981, 1982 and 1983 (first nine months).
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Elton)My Lords, the annual tables on offences and punishments at each establishment, published in Prison Statistics, show 1,251 offences punished at Holloway in 1980; 1,085 in 1981, and 1,061 in 1982. This information is compiled only annually, so figures for the first nine months of 1983 are not yet readily available.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord the Minister for that Answer. May I please ask him three simple questions? He may not have the answers to all of them, and, if so, I hope that he will write to me about them. Is it not the case that since the present Governor of Holloway was appointed some 15 months ago there has been a history of conflict within this prison? Secondly, is he aware of the very large extent of the use of drugs by the prison authorities in Holloway? Regarding the use of drugs, I understand—and he will know of a Written Answer from his office in another place—in 1982 there were roughly 300,000 doses dispensed to prisoners in Holloway. May I ask whether any of these drugs have been dispensed as a matter of discipline? How does the number compare with drugs administered in male prisons? Thirdly, will the noble Lord tell the House whether the Government are now prepared to publish the report that was made on the death of Mrs. Christine Scott in 1982 in that prison?
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, I am sure noble Lords will sympathise with me if I say that I was not aware of the direction of the noble Lord's Question when I answered it. It does not appear to me to have anything to do with drugs, which are never used for disciplinary purposes. I can assure the noble Lord on that head. I 798 can also assure him that the Governor of Holloway Prison has our entire support and is doing an admirable job. She has some difficulties, as did the staff, at the beginning of her r égime. That had nothing to do with the disciplinary situation in the prison, and relations among the staff in the prison are extremely good. As to the last supplementary question that the noble Lord asked me—I lost count; I thought it was the fifth, but one noble Lord has suggested that it was the sixth—I can only say that there was an inquest in this case and that the finding of the inquest is in no way secret.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyBut, my Lords, that last answer is really not the whole of the truth, because there was a report made—
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware of the report made to his department on the death of Mrs. Scott, and will he tell the House whether his office is prepared to publish that report? Secondly, if his office is satisfied with the conduct of the Governor, how does he equate that with the clash that they had with the All-Party Parliamentary Penal Affairs Group, when they visited that prison earlier this year?
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, as to the first of the noble Lord's second batch of supplementaries, the verdict returned by the inquest was of death by misadventure. I should tell the noble Lord that, as he would expect, I require every case of death in custody, whether by misadventure or otherwise, to be notified to me within 24 hours of working time. I read the reports and take such action as appears to me to be necessary, and I think it would be very wrong to publish these, either selectively or as a blanket proposition to publish them all, because they would then be less informative to me. So I am not prepared to undertake publication. If the noble Lord wishes to pursue further the exchanges about a visit of the All-Party Parliamentary Penal Affairs Group to the prison, I do not think that the House will wish to be detained on that, but I am quite happy to discuss it with him afterwards.
§ Lord Harmar-NichollsMy Lords, does my noble friend approve of the Order Paper being used as a vehicle for denigrating the standing of people who have authority in these difficult circumstances, particularly when we have open to us all approaches to Ministers to examine any legitimate grievances which we may have?
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, it would be unfortunate if the privilege of the House were used to cast aspersions upon people who are doing an honest and good job. But I welcome the opportunity of placing on record the high regard which I and my colleagues have for the work done by the Governor of Holloway Prison.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, is the noble Lord—
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, does the noble Lord agree that this is a correct forum for the ventilation of, and questioning of Ministers on, matters of public concern, and that when these are brought to our attention it is our responsibility to put them to the appropriate Minister? Also, would he not agree that he welcomes this opportunity of having a discussion on public affairs?
§ The Lord President of the Council (Viscount Whitelaw)My Lords. I should have sought to suggest to the noble Lord that he was going too far, if it were not for the fact that in a previous capacity I was responsible for appointing the present Governor of Holloway Prison. Therefore. I thought it improper of me to intervene. But I think I should say now to the noble Lord that he has had a very good run on this Question. I hope that he will take advantage of what my noble friend has said about discussing these matters further with him, and I hope he will realise that to continue too far on these lines imposes a considerable burden on this House.
§ Lord HaleMy Lords, will the noble Viscount bear in mind that most of us are operating under difficulties with the Order Paper, because we have a full House and a small paper? My noble friend has raised a matter for inquiry; it is a matter on which he is entitled to ask for an investigation, and it is a matter which has apparently been raised in another place, too. I should have thought that my noble friend put his questions with reticence and, certainly, without any aggression. I did not understand why the Minister himself suggested that there had not been a certain amount of trouble.
§ Viscount WhitelawMy Lords, I would not seek to dispute what the noble Lord—an old friend of mine from another place years ago—has said. I just think that my point about the interests of the whole House was a reasonable one. I feel that the noble Lord, Lord Hatch, has had an opportunity to pursue his case. I feel that I allowed him to pursue it longer than, perhaps, I would have done if I had not felt slightly personally involved in a difficult matter.