Lead-free Petrol (Hansard, 8 November 1983)

§ Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution thinks that it should be possible for unleaded petrol to be introduced for new cars throughout the European Community by 1990. This target date seems a reasonable one to aim at, although we shall try to improve on it if possible.

§ Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord the Minister for that reply; but I am anxious that this matter should proceed sooner that that. Would he agree with me that in general the Government's record in reducing the hazards of lead has been very good?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, yes, I am very grateful to my noble friend. It has been an excellent one. Further to my original Answer, our object is to secure the introduction of unleaded petrol as soon as is practicable. But I should point out to the House that from the end of 1985 petrol will contain a smaller amount of lead—60 per cent. less that it does at present. We are intent upon removing the remainder as a matter of general prudence.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, will the Minister confirm that, despite certain press comments to the contrary, there is no problem whatever either to the car manufacturing industry or to the petroleum industry in producing and running cars on lead-free petrol? There have been comments to the contrary. Is it not possible to speed up the negotiations with the EEC countries so that we can have this operating before 1990?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, in reply to the last point, we are certainly doing everything we can. We had a very successful Environment Ministers' Council in June this year and discussions are continuing on this. I hope to be able to publish the discussions, if not the results of the discussions, by Christmas. Some United Kingdom refineries can produce limited amounts of high octane unleaded petrol, but the oil industry as a whole would need quite a long time, and considerable additional investment, before that could be generally available. The present generation of cars also need lead as an engine lubricant. Finally, we must have a European agreement on octane ratings, so unfortunately there is no easy overnight solution. But I reiterate what I said earlier we shall, if at all possible, bring the target date forward, but of course with agreement.

§ Baroness Ewart-Biggs
My Lords, would the Minister not agree that, although an EEC accord would obviously provide the ideal basis for the introduction of lead-free petrol, nevertheless 1990 is a long way away? Would he not accept that if Britain made a unilateral pronouncement on an earlier date (as has Germany), this would encourage France and Itlay who have been dragging their feet and would also help the motor industry to make their own forward planning?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
No, my Lords. As I understand it, Germany has not made a unilateral declaration but has announced an intention, which is rather different. On the more general point, the car industry in this country is part of a Europe-wide car industry, and therefore it would be totally counter-productive for a small proportion of the cars which are bought in this country to run on unleaded petrol, whereas the great majority which come in from other EEC countries would still have to run on leaded petrol. This is why we say that we need agreement in the EEC.

§ Lord Leatherland
My Lords, does the Minister think that he will he able to give me a satisfactory reply if I put down a Question in 1990?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, whoever is answering from this Bench will, I am sure, be able to give the noble Lord an accurate and responsible reply.

§ Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, can the Minister inform me whether the 60 per cent. reduction in lead in the petrol in 1985 will reduce the hazard to fruits and vegetables grown within a certain distance of traffic pollution at the present time or whether it will still remain a hazard, and that advice should still be given to people to wash all fruit and vegetables because of the dangers? If he does not know the scientific answer on this at this stage, will he see that sufficient 689 publicity is given at the appropriate time to whatever is the right answer?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, in answer to my noble friend, I do know that the dust-lead route, as it is called, is still in some doubt, as to what exactly is the effect of lead in dust. I am perfectly happy to repeat advice that I think I gave to the House some three or four months ago all vegetables and fruit whether from high-lead areas or not, should as a matter of course, be washed before they are consumed; and also, in the case of leaf vegetables, the outer leaves should he removed.

The Earl of Halsbury
My Lords, have Her Majesty's Government a view on a recent article in the New Scientist to the effect that the whole movement towards lead-free petrol is based on very questionable clinical data?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, I would not go quite so far as that this afternoon; but I would say that from our studies of the available medical evidence the Government feel that at the very least the medical evidence is equivocal.