HL Deb 13 May 1983 vol 442 cc710-2

11.17 a.m.

Lord Hale

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will give an unequivocal refusal to the request of the Italian Government for permission to receive into Great Britain 21 drums or bidons of soil from the explosion of Seveso in 1976 which is believed to contain the most deadly poison known to man for which the authorities have been seeking acceptance throughout Europe, and which is now detained at St. Quentin in France.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, this is a serious matter. No request to receive this waste has been made to the United Kingdom Government by the Italian Government or anyone else. In principle, it would be an unwelcome import.

Lord Hale

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I am grateful for that Answer and that I am very reassured by it, because what this Government might do in any given circumstances is unpredictable? I took this information straight from The Times newspaper, and I think I have referred him to that.

Noble Lords

Question!

Lord Hale

My Lords, indeed I have a dozen extracts from The Times which show that 41 bidons (not 21) have been making the "Grand Tour" of Europe, carting about the most deadly poison in the world from a spot where it has been dug over for 20 years and at the very moment when a trial to investigate the origin of the poison and the question of care or otherwise in the exothermic explosion was actually starting in the absence of the defendants at Monza—

Noble Lords

Question!

Lord Hale

My Lords, I agree. May I add this? Would the noble Lord bear in mind that this is, as he says, a very serious matter, and that it would be to repudiate many pledges if there was any question of allowing this stuff to come into this country, and that—

The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Earl Ferrers)

My Lords. I wonder whether the noble Lord would be good enough to put his supplementary question as succinctly as possible. I think that would be for the convenience of the House, and my noble friend would then be able to reply to it.

Lord Hale

My Lords, I am only too delighted to do so. Would the noble Lord bear in mind that the British citizen has had to put up with a great deal over the past four years? This really is something that he could not stand, and, indeed, is also clearly, literally, something that he could not swallow.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, we are fully aware of the concern evidenced by the noble Lord in his taking up the substance of an article (which, I must say, at this stage appears to be a little speculative) in The Times newspaper. As I have already said, this is a very serious matter. There is no evidence that the waste has been brought into the United Kingdom, and we are taking every practical step to ensure that it does not enter the country.

Baroness Birk

My Lords, could the Minister tell us why the Government did not place an immediate ban on the importation of these barrels—a power which they have under the Control of Pollution Act 1974? Secondly, since representatives of county councils and port authorities recently told a Select Committee of your Lordships' House that they are not satisfied with the Government's promises to close the loopholes, could the Minister reassure the House that the present regulations governing the importation of dangerous chemicals are adequate?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, as I am sure the noble Baroness will know, in this respect the Control of Pollution Act operates under a system of licences, and the Government are convinced that this system of licences is adequate. Powers to ban or restrict imports exist, but whether they would apply would depend upon the actual material, its condition, packaging and what was proposed to be done with it; and, indeed, whether a licence was in force which would cover the particular chemical and the proposed action with regard to it.

But we do not know for sure what the waste is, or in what condition, and I really cannot say whether that would apply. Simple dislike of the material is not a reason in law.

Lord Kennet

My Lords, bearing in mind that this consignment of poison is reported to have left Italy in a lorry with a Right-wing Italian senator sitting beside the driver, will the Government take special care to investigate the cabs of all lorries arriving at our ports to see which Right-wing legislators are sitting beside the drivers?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, any containers which could possibly contain this waste will be examined at all ports of entry into this country, whoever may accompany them or drive them.

Lord Campbell of Alloway

My Lords, may I ask my noble friend the Minister whether within the Community context there are any arrangements for the disposal of this sort of material, and what is to be done with it eventually?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, this is exactly the problem. Nobody knows what is to be done with it eventually because the transport of hazardous waste throughout the Community is accompanied by licences to enable it to be transported from one country to a different country. The Select Committee on Science and Technology of your Lordships' House have recently reported on their investigation into hazardous waste disposal, and they comment on the proposed draft directive to deal with just that problem.

Lord Elwyn-Jones

My Lords, as we are talking about some deadly poison, should there not be some international convention or control, even wider than the Community, to prevent this sort of hazard being carted around the world in the hope that some unfortunate people will be foolish enough to accept it?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I would not accept that although this is a hazardous poison it is necessarily a deadly one, because, as I have said before, we do not know exactly what this waste is. An international treaty covering the disposal or transport of such waste does not exist, so far as I am aware; but I certainly agree that this is likely to become a worldwide problem and should be dealt with on a worldwide scale.

Lord Ironside

My Lords, if this waste is dioxin, as a lot of people suspect, would my noble friend confirm that there are firms which have the competence and the capability to incinerate this stuff, which reduces it to harmless waste?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend. My information is that there are firms, both in this country and on the continent, which have the capability of "neutrifying" this very dangerous substance by using temperatures of enormous magnitude.