National Heritage Bill [H.L.] (Hansard, 12 May 1983)

HL Deb 12 May 1983 vol 442 cc559-84 559

§ 3.41 p.m.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy (The Earl of Avon)
My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments be now considered.

§ Moved, That the Commons Amendments be now considered.—(The Earl of Avon.)

§ On Question, Motion agreed to.

§ COMMONS AMENDMENTS

§ [References are to Bill [85] as first printed for the Commons]

§ 1 Clause 2, page 2, line 5, leave out from "enjoyment" to "and" in line 6 and insert "and understanding of art, craft".

§ 2 Clause 2, page 2, line 10, at end insert— (aa) provide education, instruction and advice and carry out research,".

§ 3 Clause 2, page 2, line 17, after "admission" insert "or for other services or for goods provided by them,".

560

§ 4 Clause 2, page 2, line 26, leave out subsection (4) and insert— (4) If a Minister of the Crown directs the Board to exercise functions which are exercisable by him (whether by virtue of an enactment or otherwise), which in his opinion can appropriately be exercised by the Board having regard to their functions and resources, and which are specified in the direction, the Board shall exercise them on his behalf in such manner as he may from time to time direct; but nothing in this subsection authorises the Board to exercise a function of making regulations or other instruments of a legislative character".

§ 5 Clause 2, page 2, line 33, leave out subsection (6) and insert— (6) The Board may allow premises occupied or managed by them to be used by other persons (for payment or otherwise) for purposes not connected with the functions mentioned in subsection (1) if the Board are satisfied that to do so would not conflict unduly with those functions".

§ 6 After Clause 2, insert the following new clause:

§ "Power of Board to form companies.

§ (1) With the consent of the Secretary of State and subject to any conditions he may impose, the Board may form or take part in forming one or more bodies corporate which (or each of which) has as its main object or objects one or more of those mentioned in subsection (2).

§ (2) The objects are—

(a) the production and publication of books, films or other informative material relating to art, craft or design,
(b) the commissioning of works of art, craft or design,
(c) the production of replicas or reproductions of works of art, craft or design, or of souvenirs,
(d) the sale of informative material relating to art, craft or design, of works of art, craft or design, of replicas or reproductions of such works, or of souvenirs, and,
(e) the provision of catering or car parking or other services or facilities for the public at any premises occupied or managed by the Board.

§ (3) The Board may hold interests in any such body, exercise rights conferred by the holding of interests in it, and provide financial or other assistance to or in respect of it (including assistance by way of guarantee of its obligations).

§ (4) In this section references to works of design are to works illustrating the principles of design.

§ (5) This section is without prejudice to any power of the Board to undertake anything mentioned in subsection (2) by virtue of section 2."

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments No. 1 to 6 en bloc. At the same time I should like to speak to Amendments Nos. 14 to 19, 27 and 28, 30 to 33, 40 to 47, 49, 63, 66 to 69, 71 to 77, 79 to 83, 85, to 92 and 94 to 96. The first of these amendments relates to the functions and constitutions of the four boards of trustees. Perhaps I could highlight those which may be of greatest interest to the House. The Government have added to the Bill amendments designed to ensure that all or some of the boards specifically have powers to carry out particular functions. This group includes powers to establish trading companies (Amendments Nos. 6, 19 and 49); powers to let premises for purposes not connected with their functions (Amendments Nos. 5 and 18); and a power for the Minister to direct that the board shall undertake functions on his behalf. This last replaces narrower powers in the original Bill and is intended to ensure that the V and A and Science Museums can continue to administer the local purchase grants scheme if required. We have also clarified the board's functions in respect of their 561 educational role and their powers to charge for services or goods provided by them.
Further groups of amendments are concerned with Schedule 1. These widen the fields of expertise to which the appropriate Minister of the Crown shall have regard when appointing trustees, raise the minimum size of the quorum in most boards, give an explicit power to pay allowances in respect of loss of earnings for trustees and committee members; provide a duty to report on the introduction of any admission charges, together with any exemptions, and provide the boards with the privileges, immunities and exemptions enjoyed by a Minister when they are exercising functions on his behalf.
There are also a number of what might be best described as technical amendments concerned with the accounting provisions changing the reference from "property" to "land" and the substitution for "craft" for "the crafts" and "understanding" for "knowledge" in Clauses 2, 9 and 16 and paragraph 3(3) of Schedule 1.
I should like also to bring to your attention a series of printing errors in some amendments in this group. On page 4, Amendment 19, subsection (2)(b) line 1, the first "or" should read "of". On page 5, Amendment 19, subsection (2)(d), line 3, after "occupied" insert "or managed". On page 9, Amendment 49, subsection (2) (b), "plans" should read "plants". Page 13, Amendment No. 63, (b) should read (6). Page 16, Amendment 90, para. 32, line 2, the second "as" should read "or". Page 17, Amendment No. 97, subsection (8), line 4, after "lie" insert "except". I beg to move.

§ Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said amendments.—(The Earl of Avon.)

§ On Question, Motion agreed to.

§ COMMONS AMENDMENTS

§ 7 Clause 5, page 4, line 10, leave out "Subject to section 2(6)".

§ 8 Clause 5, page 4, line 18, leave out from beginning to "for" in line 27 and insert— (3) The Board may not dispose of an object the property in which is vested in them and which is comprised in their collections unless—

(a) the disposal is by way of sale, exchange or gift of an object which is a duplicate of another object the property in which is so vested and which is so comprised, or
(b) the disposal is by way of sale, exchange or gift of an object which in the Board's opinion is unsuitable for retention in their collections and can be disposed of without detriment to the interests of students or other members of the public, or
(c) the disposal is by way of sale or gift made to, or exchange made with, any institution mentioned in subsection (3A), or
(d) the disposal (by whatever means, including destruction) if of an object which the Board are satisfied has become useless for the purposes of their collections by reason of damage, physical deterioration, or infestation by destructive organisms.

(3A) The institutions mentioned in subsection (3)(c) are the institutions.".

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, I beg to move Amendments Nos. 7 and 8 en bloc and at the same time speak to Amendments Nos. 10 to 13, 20 and 21, 23 to 26, 29, 34 and 34A, 36 to 39, 48 and 50 to 53. There is also one correction in this block of 562 amendments which is on page 5, Amendment No. 20—page 2 should read page 8.
As we stressed when we took the Bill through this House, in drafting the Bill we have been very concerned to ensure that the rights of third parties remain unaffected. Thus, Clause 3(4) provides that any rights and liabilities which a Secretary of State has or to which he is subject because of his ownership of the objects in the collections are transferred to the board along with the objects. If an object is subject to a trust or condition now, it will remain so in the hands of the board. We have further sought to ensure that rights under trusts or conditions would be respected by including the express declaration which was contained in Clause 2(6) of a previous print of the Bill.
On further reflection, we now think that the subsection is unnecessary and may in fact positively threaten third party rights in other respects. The subsection is unnecessary because it amounts to no more than the proposition that the board should observe the law: in other words, it is stating the obvious. It is well established in law that where legislation creates a statutory corporation (which the board will be) it does not empower the corporation to disregard the law, unless the clearest of words are used. Without Clause 2(6) there is no question that the board will be able to override trusts and conditions. The new Clause 5(3) is designed to emphasise still more clearly than its predecessor that the board may not dispose of any object in breach of trust or condition except in the very limited circumstances prescribed in paragraph (d).
The amended Clause 5(5) makes it possible for the boards to override trusts and conditions in the disposal of objects only where an object is useless for the purposes of the board's collections by reason of damage, physical deterioration or infestation by destructive organisms. By stipulating that trusts and conditions may be overridden only in these circumstances there can be no question that in the case of all other disposals, whether by sale, exchange or gift, the trust and conditions must be observed.
So far as lending is concerned, the new provisions vary slightly from those previously in the Bill, in that they make it plain that it is the person who originally imposed the restriction or his personal representatives whose consent is required to the loan of an object and not the person or personal representatives of the person who donated or bequeathed the object to the museum. In many cases this person and the person who imposed the condition will be one and the same, but it is possible to imagine gifts or bequests of objects already subject to a condition imposed by another. In these circumstances we think it right that the person who orginally set up the restriction should be the one to lift the restriction and not the ultimate donor.
The Government believe that there is a distinction to be drawn in the case of provisions affecting the board's powers to make loans between trusts and conditions. In the case of the latter, the donor of an object which is subject to a condition may be entitled to the return of that object should the condition be breached. These amendments are not intended to alter in any way the basic premise underlying the provisions 563 of the Bill: the trust and conditions attaching to objects must be observed. I beg to move.

§ Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said amendments.—(The Earl of Avon).

§ On Question, Motion agreed to.

§ COMMONS AMENDMENT

§ 9 Page 4, line 30, leave out from "Trustees" to end of line 33 and insert "and the Tate Gallery Trustees".

§ 3.50 p.m.

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 9. I should also like to speak to Amendments Nos. 22, 35, 189, 191 to 197 and 199. These amendments were tabled in response to a commitment which I gave to the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, on Report and again on Third Reading. They deal with points which were also raised in Committee in another place. These amendments add the Boards of the Armouries, the British Museum (Natural History) and the British Library to the list of bodies set out in Schedule 1 to the National Gallery and Tate Gallery Act 1954.
Schedule 1 to the 1954 Act serves two purposes. First, it names the institutions other than the National and Tate galleries to which the Secretary of State may direct works of art left to the nation without specific direction being made. The National and Tate galleries are covered by specific provisions elsewhere in that Act. There are good reasons why these three institutions should also be able to benefit from such directions. The British Library is the foremost library in the nation and, since the National Libraries of both Wales and Scotland are already included, it is right that the British Library should also be named. Of course, the British Library did not exist as a separate entity in 1954 and the Act of 1972 establishing the Library did not include appropriate provisions.
The omission of the British Museum (Natural History) came about for similar reasons. The British Museum Act 1963 established the Natural History Museum as a separate entity, but made no provision to add the new body to the Schedule to the 1954 Act. In our view, the Tower Armouries should also be added, since it is right that they should be able to benefit in the same way as the other trustee museums and galleries in appropriate instances. The list in the 1954 schedule serves an additional purpose; it represents those national institutions to whom the Tate Gallery may transfer objects.
Similar reference to the schedule was made in some subsequent museums legislation but not all, and the transfer provisions in those Acts vary. Taken with the effect of transfer provisions in legislation prior to 1954, there is no fully reciprocal system. This is not as bad as it sounds, because in most cases the essential relationships between particular institutions are covered in one way or another.
These amendments fill some of the more serious gaps involving the British Museum and the British Library. Further, by adding those institutions to Schedule 1 to the 1954 Act with the British Museum 564 (Natural History) and the Armouries, we enable those institutions to receive relevant objects by transfer from those other national institutions empowered to do so. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, will agree that these amendments meet the substance of his own amendments earlier, and I beg to move.

§ Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said amendment.—(The Earl of Avon.)

§ Lord Strabolgi
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Avon, for explaining the purpose of these amendments which, as he said, are based on amendments that I moved during Report and Third Reading stages when the Bill came before your Lordships' House. During the passage of the Bill through this House, where it started, it came to light that there were certain defects in the drafting of the British Museum Act, the National Gallery and Tate Gallery Act, and that other Acts relating to the transfer of objects between our national museums were out of date and should have been updated, as the noble Earl said, to take account of institutions such as the British Library which have come into effect since those Acts became law. Therefore, it seemed to us that it was important that this Bill should be seen as an opportunity to tidy up this legislation. The Government accepted that in principle in this House, and we are very grateful to them for the fact that they have made these amendments in the other place. Particularly on the 20th anniversary of the British Museum Act 1963, it is important that this defect should have been put right. We are very grateful.

§ On Question, Motion agreed to.

§ COMMONS AMENDMENTS

§ 10 Page 4, line 34, leave out subsections (5) and (6) and insert— (5) An object may be disposed of as mentioned in subsection (3)(d) notwithstanding a trust or condition (express or implied) prohibiting or restricting the disposal of the object.".

§ 11 Page 4, line 42, leave out "an exercise of the powers conferred by" and insert "a disposal mentioned in".

§ 12 Clause 6, page 5, line 1, leave out "subsections (2) and (3)" and insert "subsection (2)".

§ 13 Clause 6, page 5, line 18, leave out subsection (3) and insert— (3) Where the property in an object has become vested in the Board subject to a condition, the power conferred by subsection (1) is exercisable in a manner inconsistent with the condition if either—

(a) 25 years have elapsed since the date on which the property became vested in the Board (or, where it became vested in them under section 3(1), the Minister), or
(b) the person who first imposed the condition or his personal representatives have consented in writing to the exercise of the power in that manner.".

§ 14 Clause 9, page 6, line 5, leave out from "enjoyment" to "or in line 6 and insert "and understanding of science and technology and".

§ 15 Clause 9, page 6, line 11, at end insert— (aa) provide education, instruction and advice and carry out research,".

§ 16 Clause 9, page 6, line 18, after "admission" insert "or for other services or for goods provided by them".

§ 17 Clause 9, page 6, line 25, at end insert— (3A) If a Minister of the Crown directs the Board to exercise functions which are exercisable by him (whether by virtue of an enactment or otherwise), which in his opinion can appropriately be exercised by the Board having regard to their functions and resources, and which are specified in the direction, the Board shall exercise them on his behalf in such manner as he may from time to time direct; but 565 nothing in this subsection authorises the Board to exercise a function of making regulations or other instruments of a legislative character.

§ 18 Clause 9, page 6, line 28, leave out subsection (5) and insert— (5) The Board may allow premises occupied or managed by them to be used by other persons (for payment or otherwise) for purposes not connected with the functions mentioned in subsection (1) if the Board are satisfied that to do so would not conflict unduly with those functions.".

§ 19 After clause 9, insert the following new clause:

§ "Power of Board to form companies

§ .—(1) With the consent of the Secretary of State and subject to any conditions he may impose, the Board may form or take part in forming one or more bodies corporate which (or each of which) has as its main object or objects one or more of those mentioned in subsection (2).

§ (2) The objects are—

(a) the production and publication of books, films or other informative material relating to science and technology.
(b) the production of replicas or reproductions of objects relating to science and technology, or of souvenirs.
(c) the sale of informative material relating to science and technology, or of replicas or reproductions of objects relating to science and technology, or of souvenirs, and
(d) the provision of catering or car parking or other services or facilities for the public at any premises occupied or managed by the Board.

§ (4) In this section references to science and technology include references to the development of those subjects.

§ (5) This section is without prejudice to any power of the Board to undertake anything mentioned in subsection (2) by virtue of section 9."

§ 20 Clause 12, page 8, line 1, leave out "Subject to section 9(5),".

§ 21 Clause 12, page 8, line 9, leave out from beginning to "for" in line 19 and insert— (3) The Board may not dispose of an object the property in which is vested in them and which is comprised in their collections unless—

(a) the disposal is by way of sale, exchange, or gift of an object which is a duplicate of another object the property in which is so vested and which is so comprised, or
(b) the disposal is by way of sale, exchange or gift of an object which in the Board's opinion is unsuitable for retention in their collections and can be disposed of without detriment to the interests of students or other members of the public, or
(c) the disposal is by way of sale or gift made to, or exchange made with, any institution mentioned in subsection (3A), or
(d) the disposal (by whatever means, including destruction) is of an object which the Board are satisfied has become useless for the purposes of their collections by reason of damage, physical deterioration, or infestation by destructive organisms.

(3A) The institutions mentioned in subsection (3)(c) are the institutions".

§ 22 Clause 12, page 8, line 21, leave out from "Trustees" to end of line 24 and insert "and the Tate Gallery Trustees".

§ 23 Clause 12, page 8, line 25, leave out subsections (5) and (6) and insert— (5) An object may be disposed of as mentioned in subsection (3)(d) notwithstanding a trust or condition (express or implied) prohibiting or restricting the disposal of the object.".

§ 24 Clause 12, page 8, line 33, leave out "an exercise of the powers conferred by" and insert "a disposal mentioned in".

§ 25 Clause 13, page 8, line 37, leave out "subsections (2) and (3)" and insert "subsection (2)".

§ 26 Clause 13, page 9, line 12, leave out subsection (3) and insert— (3) Where the property in an object has become vested in the Board subject to a condition, the power conferred by 566 subsection (1) is exercisable in a manner inconsistent with the condition if either—

(a) 25 years have elapsed since the date on which the property became vested in the Board (or, where it became vested in them under section 10(1), the Minister), or
(b) the person who first imposed the condition or his personal representatives have consented in writing to the exercise of the power in that manner.".

§ 27 Clause 16, page 10, line 6, leave out "of, and advance their knowledge" and insert "and understanding".

§ 28 Clause 16, page 10, line 11, at end, insert— (aa) provide education, instruction and advice and carry out research.".

§ 29 Clause 16, page 10, line 31, leave out subsection (7).

§ 30 Clause 16, page 10, line 42, at end, insert", and includes power to require payment for goods or for services other than admission provided by the Board.".

§ 31 Clause 17, page 11, line 1, at beginning insert "Subject to subsection (3A)".

§ 32 Clause 17, page 11, line 20, at end insert— (3A) Subsections (1) and (3) do not apply as regards an object excepted from those provisions by an order made by the Secretary of State and coming into force before the vesting day. (3B) The power to make an order under subsection (3A) shall be exercisable by statutory instrument subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.".

§ 33 Clause 17, page 11, line 22, at end insert "(other than subsections (3A) and (3B))".

§ 34 Clause 18, page 11, line 23, leave out "Subject to section 16(7),".

§ 34A Clause 18, page 11, line 31, leave out from beginning to "for" in line 40 and insert— (3) The Board may not dispose of an object the property in which is vested in them and which is comprised in their collection unless—

(a) the disposal is by way of sale, exchange or gift of an object which is a duplicate of another object the property in which is so vested and which is so comprised, or
(b) the disposal is by way of sale, exchange or gift of an object which in the Board's opinion is unsuitable for retention in their collection and can be disposed of without detriment to the interests of students or other members of the public, or
(c) the disposal is by way of sale or gift made to, or exchange made with, any institution mentioned in subsection (3A), or
(d) the disposal (by whatever means, including destruction) is of an object which the Board are satisfied has become useless for the purposes of their collection by reason of damage, physical deterioration, or infestation by destructive organisms.

(3A) The institutions mentioned in subsection (3)(c) are the institutions".

§ 35 Clause 18, page 11, line 42, leave out from "1954" to end of line 44 and insert "(ignoring the words "The Armouries"), the National Gallery Trustees and the Tate Gallery Trustees.".

§ 36 Clause 18, page 12, line 1, leave out subsection (5).

§ 37 Clause 18, page 12, line 7, leave out "an exercise of the powers conferred by" and insert "a disposal mentioned in".

§ 38 Clause 19, page 12, line 11, leave out "subsections (2) and (3)" and insert "subsection (2)".

§ 39 Clause 19, page 12, line 28, leave out subsection (3) and insert— (3) Where the property in an object has become vested in the Board subject to a condition, the power conferred by subsection (1) is exercisable in a manner inconsistent with the condition if either—

(a) 25 years have elapsed since the date on which the condition was first imposed on any person, or
(b) the person who first imposed the condition or his personal representatives have consented in writing to the exercise of the power in that manner.".

§ 40 Clause 22, page 13, line 26, leave out "property" and insert "land".

§ 41 Clause 22, page 13, line 36, after "Board" insert "or for any goods provided by them".

§ 42 Clause 22, page 13, line 37, leave out "property" and insert "land".

567

§ 43 Clause 22, page 14, line 1, leave out "property" and insert "land".

§ 44 Clause 22, page 14, line 4, after "functions" insert "which are".

§ 45 Clause 22, page 14, line 7, leave out "property" and insert "land and which in his opinion can appropriately be exercised by the Board having regard to their functions and resources: but subsection (5) does not apply to a function of making regulations or other instruments of a legislative character.".

§ 46 Clause 22, page 14, line 9, leave out "property" and insert "land".

§ 47 Clause 22, page 14, line 18, leave out "property" and insert "land".

§ 48 Clause 22, page 14, line 23, leave out subsection (9).

§ 49 After Clause 22, insert the following new Clause:

§ Power of Board to form companies.

§ (1) With the consent of the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and subject to any conditions he may impose, the Board may form or take part in forming one or more bodies corporate which (or each of which) has as its main object or objects one or more of those mentioned in subsection (2).

§ (2) The objects are—

(a) the production and publication of books, films or other informative material relating to the science of plants or related subjects or to the Board and their functions,
(b) the production of souvenirs relating to plants or to the Board's activities,
(c) the sale of plants produced by the Board or objects relating to plants, of informative material relating to the science of plants or related subjects, or of souvenirs relating to plants or to the Board's activities, and
(d) the provision of catering or car parking or other services or facilities for the public at any land occupied by the Board.

§ (4) This section is without prejudice to any power of the Board to undertake anything mentioned in subsection (2) by virtue of section 22".

§ 50 Clause 24, page 15, line 12, leave out "Subject to section 22(9)",

§ 51 Clause 24, page 15, line 15, leave out from beginning to end of line 30 and insert— (2) The Board may not dispose of an object the property in which is vested in them and which is comprised in their collections unless—

(a) the disposal is by way of sale, exchange or gift of an object which is a duplicate of another object the property in which is so vested and which is so comprised, or
(b) the disposal is by way of sale, exchange or gift of an object which in the Board's opinion is unsuitable for retention in their collections and can be disposed of without detriment to the interests of students or other members of the public, or
(c) the disposal (by whatever means, including destruction) is of an object which the Board are satisfied has become useless for the purposes of their collections by reason of damage, physical deterioration, or infestation by destructive organisms.

(2A) An object may be disposed of as mentioned in subsection (2)(c) notwithstanding a trust or condition (express or implied) prohibiting or restricting the disposal of the object".

§ 52 Clause 25, page 15, line 31, leave out "subsections (2) and (3)" and insert "subsection (2)".

§ 53 Clause 25, page 16, line 4, leave out subsection (3).

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 10 to 53 en bloc. I have spoken to them.

§ Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said amendments.—(The Earl of Avon.)

568

§ On Question, Motion agreed to.

§ COMMONS AMENDMENT

§ 54 Clause 29, page 17, line 3, leave out "Commission for Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings" and insert "Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission".

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 54. I should also like to speak to Amendments Nos. 98, 114, 126 to 132, 134, 136, 138 to 142, 145, 149, 152, 154 and 155, 157, 186, 190 and 198. As the House will be aware, these amendments are all identical and deal with the name of the new commission. There are two corrections to make to the list. On page 23, Amendment No. 138, line 1, uses the word "Buildments" and this should of course read "Monuments". "Page 23" should read "Page 25" in Amendment No. 155, and, in line 1, the word "Manuments" should of course read "Monuments".
The House will be aware that these amendments which we have made fulfill the undertaking which I gave at Third Reading to change the name of the commission. We had a number of discussions about various alternatives before we settled on this. I believe it is proof of your Lordships' good sense in this matter that in another place no alternative gained more support than ours, and that this name was voted into the Bill. I trust that these amendments will be welcomed in the spirit in which they are proposed. My Lords, I beg to move.

§ Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said amendment.—(The Earl of Avon.)

§ Baroness Birk
My Lords, I am delighted with this amendment, because I think at the end of the day, after we had had a lot of tries at finding a better and less cumbersome name, that I suggested this name. I felt that it was the best we could get out of very difficult phrasing in the way of trying to get something shorter and a little crisper. Unfortunately, we could not, either here or in another place, find a further way of cutting it or making the name rather more jaunty. But I am very glad that in another place they agreed with what we decided here.

§ Baroness Airey of Abingdon
My Lords, I should like to support the noble Baroness in this amendment.

§ On Question, Motion agreed to.

§ COMMONS AMENDMENTS

§ 55 Clause 30, page 18, line 28, leave out subsection (6).

§ 56 Clause 30, page 19, line 6, after "architectural" insert ", traditional, artistic".

§ 57 Clause 31, page 19, line 31, after "architectural" insert ", traditional, artistic".

§ 58 After Clause 31, insert the following new clause:

§ "Power of Commission to form companies.

§ (1) The Commission may form or take part in forming one or more bodies corporate which (or each of which) has as its main object or objects one or more of those mentioned in subsection (2).

§ (2) The objects are—

(a) the production and publication in England of books, films or other informative material relating to ancient monuments or historic buildings,
(b) the production in England of souvenirs relating to ancient monuments or historic buildings.
(c) the sale in England of informative material relating to ancient monuments or historic buildings, or of souvenirs, and
(d) the provision in England of catering or car parking or other services or facilities for members of the public visiting ancient monuments or historic buildings.

§ (3) The Commission may hold interests in any such body, exercise rights conferred by the holding of interests in it, and provide financial or other assistance to or in respect of it (including assistance by way of guarantee of its obligations).

§ (4) In this section "ancient monument" and "historic building" have the same meanings as in section 30.

§ (5) This section is without prejudice to any power of the Commission to undertake anything mentioned in subsection (2) by virtue of section 30".

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 55 to 58 en bloc. At the same time, I should like to speak to Amendments Nos. 60 to 63, 65, 99 to 101, 103 to 113, 115 to 125, 133, 137, 143 and 144, 146 to 148, 150 and 151, 153, 156, 158 to 185, 187 and 187A. This group of amendments deals with various aspects of the commission's functions. Some of them are simply tidying up amendments, such as those about consultation requirements or clarifying the position of monuments or buildings which straddle the English border. Others, however, may be of particular interest to this House being matters which occasioned much discussion at earlier stages. For example, Amendment No. 58 contains a revised power for the commission to form trading companies. It will allow a subsidiary to have wider objects and hence to undertake a wider range of presentational and promotional activities. I hope that it will be welcomed here, as it was in another place.
The House may also have noticed Amendment No. 101, which is an amended version of a provision about local government knowledge or experience among commissioners, which was inserted in this House on Report. The Government believe that, by redrafting it slightly and placing it in a separate sub-paragraph, we have managed to express the same intention without the ambiguity of the original. Similarly, Amendment No. 125 provides an amended register of gardens provision which we have brought forward for largely legal reasons. I hope that, in the light of the Government's acceptance of the principles behind these provisions, the redrafting is acceptable.
Amendment No. 105 is again a tidied-up version of an amendment which was finally voted into the Bill in another place, which requires the commision to set up a committee on ancient monuments and one on historic buildings, as well as enabling them to set up other committees. We believe that our version brings out more clearly the desired intention and I hope that the House will give it their support. Noble Lords may also be glad to see Amendment No. 184, which enables the commission to make grants to the Architectural Heritage Fund. This will provide an additional way for the commission to channel funds through the AHF to local trusts which operate revolving funds.
One amendment which needs some explanation is Amendment No. 181, which deletes the words "or building" which were added by this House in Committee. The intention was to clarify the commission's 570 powers to undertake or pay for archaeological investigations of buildings as well as land. However, the House may recall that in the 1979 Act, where these powers are to be found, the word "land" is clearly defined as including a building or monument, so not only is the addition of "or building" unnecessary but in legal terms—this is the important point—it would imply that "land" does not include "building". So if we leave things as they are, there will be two definitions of "land", one explicitly including buildings and monuments, the other implicitly excluding buildings. This would be highly confusing. After a great deal of consideration the Government have concluded therefore that because these words could have a most unfortunate effect on the interpretation of other parts of the 1979 Act they would best be deleted.
Lastly, there are the garden amendments; namely, Amendments Nos. 119, 121 and 124. A great deal of pressure was exerted on the Government by this House to extend the commission's powers in this way and we have acceded. Under these amendments, the commission will be able to acquire gardens or other lands of outstanding historic interest, to accept endowments in respect of those acquisitions and to assist the National Trust in those acquisitions. In addition, Amendment No. 119 will allow the commission to acquire and dispose of any buildings in conservation areas which appear to them to be of special historic or architectural interest. This will enable the commission to operate a revolving fund in respect of such buildings as well as outstanding historic buildings.
I have briefly outlined some of the most notable amendments. The others are no less important in ensuring that the commission have the full range of powers and duties which they will need to operate effectively. Again I have to draw the attention of the House to some of the corrections of printing errors. On page 13, Amendment No. 61, "(a)" should read ""(a)"". On page 27, Amendment No. 180, subsection (5), line 3, "operation" should read "operations". On page 21, Amendment No. 124, subsection (1), line 2, after "so" insert "and". On page 28, Amendment No. 187A, line 2, "67A" should read "63A". Subsection (2) ought to read "Sub-paragraph (2)" and we delete (c). Line 4 should read line 6. After "redundancy" insert "scheme". On page 29, Amendment No. 187A, line 4, after "part" insert "with". On page 30, Amendment No. 187A, subparagraph (10), line 5, after "any" insert "other". I beg to move.

§ Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said amendments.—(The Earl of Avon.)

§ Lord Montagu of Beaulieu
My Lords, as one who was concerned with many of these points—

§ Lord Strabolgi
My Lords. I apologise for intervening, but, on a point of order, the noble Lord is speaking from a Spiritual Bench.

§ Lord Montagu of Beaulieu
My Lords. I apologise. As one who was concerned with other noble Lords about many of the points which have been covered by the amendments, may I say how very warmly we 571 welcome the amendments which give to the commission full commercial powers and full freedom, in particular the recognition of gardens which are such an important part of our heritage.

§ Baroness Birk
My Lords, I support what has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Montagu of Beaulieu, particularly about the wider trading powers. At Third Reading, I remember that we said we wanted these trading powers to be expanded in the way that they now are, so this is a great improvement. I am delighted, turning to Amendment No. 101, that local government has been included. We spent some time on this matter. Many of us were anxious that a representative of local government should be on the face of the Bill. That is now so. Turning to Amendment No. 100 and the exemption of the commission from controls, could the Minister tell me whether under this or any other legislation there is any procedure—non-statutory, if necessary—whereby national amenity societies or other bodies are able to call into question any excess of zeal which they think the commission have displayed over, for example, restoring an ancient building, if they feel the commission may be destroying, with good intentions, nevertheless, the very thing they are seeking to preserve by doing too much? Is no public inquiry procedure to be available to the Secretary of State so that such matters can be argued in public, as they should be? I doubt whether this would happen very frequently. I should have given notice to the Minister of this question if I had thought sooner about this point.
So far as this group of amendments is concerned, may I also draw attention to Amendment No. 105, about which we are very pleased. We had quite a full discussion in this House on the setting up of two committees, one covering ancient monuments and the other historic buildings. I am delighted that they are now included in the Bill. I am also very pleased that there is to be an extension of the powers to grant aid to the National Trust. Again that is a matter which we discussed in this House. I know that it will give great pleasure not only to the National Trust but also to the amenity societies which have been extremely helpful throughout the passage of the Bill. I am pleased about Amendment No. 125, which deals with the rewording of the register of gardens. When we originally pressed for it in this House the Government were rather doubtful about it, but now that they have reworded the register everybody is entirely happy. The garden amendments are greatly welcomed generally. That covers most of the points. The only one about which I have a query is Amendment No. 100.

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, I am not absolutely sure that I correctly followed the noble Baroness in her query, but I shall give a response now and if I find that I am incorrect perhaps I may contact her later. The answer to her problem is that if the Government set up a body to be expert in a certain field we trust it to act appropriately. There will always be disagreement between experts on issues where a decision has to rest on interpretive judgment. This does not mean that either expert is wrong. The Government are convinced that the commission will act sensibly and sensitively 572 and that they will listen to others in the field who are concerned and knowledgeable. Where a proposal was giving rise to public concern, or was likely to do so, I believe that the commission would be well advised to give their intentions a public airing in some appropriate form. That is a course which the Government would certainly wish to encourage the commission to consider in appropriate circumstances. If I have not followed the noble Baroness correctly, perhaps she will allow me to write to her on the point.

§ Baroness Birk
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. I had taken it a stage further—to being able to set up a public inquiry. However, the indication which the Minister has given will be understood by the new commission. If, however, the Minister finds that what I have said has been covered, or could be covered in the future, perhaps he will write to me about it. I do not propose at this stage to hold up the Bill.

§ On Question, Motion agreed to.

§ [An amendment to Amendment No. 59 not moved.]

§ COMMONS AMENDMENT

§ 59 After Clause 31 insert the following new clause:

§ "Records: powers of entry.

§ —(1) Any person duly authorised in writing by the Commission may at any reasonable time enter any land in England for the purpose of inspecting it with a view to obtaining information for inclusion in the Commission's records made under section 30(2)(d); and the following provisions of this section shall apply to any such power of entry.

§ (2) The power includes power for any person entering any land in exercise of the power to take with him any assistance or equipment reasonably required for the purpose to which the entry relates and to do there anything reasonably necessary for carrying out the purpose.

§ (3) The Commission may not authorise the power to be exercised in relation to any land unless they know or have reason to believe there is in, on or under the land an ancient momument or historic building; and in this subsection "ancient monument" and "historic building" have the meanings given by section 30(9).

§ (4) A person may not in the exercise of the power—

(a) enter any building or part of a building occupied as a dwelling-house without the consent of the occupier;
(b) demand admission as of right to any land which is occupied unless prior notice of the intended entry has been given to the occupier not less than 24 hours before admission is demanded.

§ (5) A person seeking to enter any land in exercise of the power shall, if so required by or on behalf of the owner or occupier of the land, produce evidence of his authority before entering.

§ (6) Where any works are being carried out on any land in relation to which the power is exercisable, a person acting in the exercise of the power shall comply with any reasonable requirements or conditions imposed by the person by whom the works are being carried out for the purpose of preventing interference with or delay to the works; but any requirements or conditions so imposed shall not be regarded as reasonable for the purposes of this subsection if compliance with them would in effect frustrate the exercise of the power or the purpose of the entry.

§ (7) Any person who intentionally obstructs a person acting in the exercise of the power shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale (as defined in section 75 of the Criminal Justice Act 1982).

§ (8) Where in the exercise of the power damage has been caused to land or chattels on land, any person interested in the land or chattels may recover compensation in respect of the damage from the Commission.

§ (9) Any claim for compensation under subsection (8) shall he made within the time and in the manner prescribed by regulations made by the Secretary of State for that purpose; and the power to make regulations under this subsection shall 573 be exercisable by statutory instrument subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.

§ (10) Any question of disputed compensation under subsection (7) shall be referred to and determined by the Lands Tribunal; and in relation to the determination of any such question sections 2(2) to (5) and 4 of the Land Compensation Act 1961 shall apply (construing the references in section 4 to the acquiring authority as references to the Commission)."

§ 4.5 p.m.

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 59.

§ Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said amendment.—(The Earl of Avon.)

§ On Question, Motion agreed to.

§ COMMONS AMENDMENTS

§ 60 After Clause 31, insert the following new clause:

§ "Monuments etc. partly situated in England.

§ (1) The Secretary of State may by order provide that the Commission shall have such functions as—

(a) he thinks appropriate (having regard to their functions in relation to monuments, buildings, gardens, areas or sites situated in England), and
(b) are specified in the order, in relation to the parts situated in England of any monuments, buildings, gardens, areas or sites which are only partly so situated and which are specified in the order.

§ (2) For the purpose of making such provision, any such order may contain—

(a) amendments of section 30 or 31, and
(b) amendments of any section or Schedule amended by Schedule 4 (including consequential amendments relating to the parts of monuments, buildings, gardens, areas or sites not situated in England).

§ (3) Any such order shall have effect subject to such supplementary, provisions (which may include savings and transitionals) as may be specified in the order.

§ (4) Nothing in this section permits the Commission to be given a function of making regulations or other instruments of a legislative character.

§ (5) The power to make an order under this section shall be exercisable by statutory instrument, and no such order shall be made unless a draft of the order has been laid before and approved by resolution of each House of Parliament".

§ 61 Clause 32, page 19, line 40, after "Parliament" insert (a).

§ 62 Clause 32, page 19, line 41, at end insert— (b) defray such expenditure of the Commission as the Treasury may approve".

§ 63 Clause 35, page 20, line 18, after (6), insert "17(3A) and (3B)".

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, I have already spoken to Amendments Nos. 60 to 63. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 60 to 63.

§ Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said amendments.—(The Earl of Avon.]

§ On Question, Motion agreed to.

§ COMMONS AMENDMENT

§ 64 Page 20, line 23, at end insert— (5) A provision brought into force by an order under this section shall have effect subject to any saving or transitional specified in the order. (6) Subsection (5) applies to the provisions of Schedule 4 notwithstanding the savings there specified, but nothing shall be specified under that subsection if it would conflict with any such saving".

574

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lord, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 64. This amendment enables a Minister of the Crown to make provision for exceptions or for specific transitional arrangements when particular clauses are brought into force by any order made under Clause 36(4). It also ensures that any such savings or transitionals made in respect of Schedule 4 must not conflict with any existing savings or transitionals already contained in the schedule. This amendment is a common form in many other Acts and provides helpful safeguards. I beg to move.

§ Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said amendment.—(The Earl of Avon.)

§ On Question, Motion agreed to.

§ COMMONS AMENDMENTS

§ 65 Clause 36, page 20, line 26, at end insert "and except so far as section (Monuments etc. partly situated in England) gives power to amend any enactment which extends to Scotland.".

§ 66 Schedule 1, page 21, line 9, at beginning insert "Subject to sub-paragraph (1B)".

§ 67 Schedule 1, page 21, line 11, leave out from "Crown" to end of line 13 and insert— (1A) The trustees and their staff shall not be regarded as civil servants and the Board's property shall not be regarded as property of, or held on behalf of the Crown. (1B) In relation to any matter as respects which the Board act by virtue of a direction under section 2(4), the Board shall enjoy the same privileges, immunities and exemptions as those enjoyed in relation to that matter by the Minister giving the direction.".

§ 68 Schedule 1, page 21, line 28, leave out "the crafts" and insert "craft".

§ 69 Schedule 1, page 21, line 28, after "management" insert "industrial relations".

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 65 to 69. I have already spoken to these amendments and beg to move them en bloc.

§ Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said amendments.—(The Earl of Avon.)

§ On Question, Motion agreed to.

§ COMMONS AMENDMENT

§ 70 Page 23, line 3, at end insert— (7) An industrial tribunal shall not consider a complaint whereby a dispute mentioned in sub-paragraph (6) is referred to it unless the complaint is presented to the tribunal before the end of the period of 3 months beginning with the date of the offer of employment or within such further period as the tribunal considers reasonable in a case where it is satisfied that it was not reasonably practicable for the complaint to be presented before the end of the period of 3 months. (8) An appeal shall lie to the Employment Appeal Tribunal on a question of law arising from any decision of, or arising in proceedings before, an industrial tribunal under this paragraph; and no appeal shall lie except to the Employment Appeal Tribunal from any decision of an industrial tribunal under this paragraph.".

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 70. I should like to speak to Amendments Nos. 78, 84, 93, 97 and 102. The Bill provides that offers of employment shall be made by each board and commission to staff, the terms and conditions of which must be on the whole not less 575 favourable than an individual's existing terms and conditions. Any dispute about whether such terms are less favourable will be referred to an industrial tribunal.
These amendments provide that, in the event of a dispute, the complaint must be referred to the tribunal within three months of the date of the offer or, in exceptional cases, within such period as the tribunal considers reasonable in the circumstances. This will ensure that any such disputes (and we hope there will be none) will be settled promptly. I am sure that the House will agree with these amendments. I beg to move.

§ Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said amendment.—(The Earl of Avon.)

§ Baroness Birk
My Lords, I remember that at Committee and Report stages in this House we had quite a lot of discussion on the question of terms of employment under the proposed new set up. I expressed some of the comments and anxieties which had been conveyed to me by the unions on this question. The amendments we now have before us both clarify the whole situation and, I hope, put to rest many of the very real anxieties and concerns that were expressed.

§ On Question, Motion agreed to.

§ COMMONS AMENDMENTS

§ 71 Page 23, line 20, leave out "four", and insert "the greater of—

(a) four, and
(b) the number equal to one third of the number of trustees at the time concerned (treating any fraction as one).".

§ 72 Page 23, line 26, after "expenses" insert "or loss of remuneration".

§ 73 Page 23, line 37, leave out from first "of" to end of line 39 and insert "the provisions of the Exchequer and Audit Departments Acts 1866 and 1921 which relate to appropriation accounts—".

§ 74 Page 24, line 13, at end insert— (4A) Each report shall include a statement of the total amount received by the Board by way of admission charges in the period covered by the report, and shall include information (in such detail as the Board think fit) about rates of, exemptions from and reductions in admission charges made by the Board".

§ 75 Page 23, line 21, at beginning insert "Subject to sub-paragraph (1B)".

§ 76 Page 23, line 23, leave out from "Crown" to end of line 25 and insert— (1A) The trustees and their staff shall not be regarded as civil servants and the Board's property shall not be regarded as property of, or held on behalf of, the Crown. (1B) In relation to any matter as respects which the Board act by virtue of a direction under section 9(4), the Board shall enjoy the same privileges, immunities and exemptions as those enjoyed in relation to that matter by the Minister giving the direction.".

§ 77 Page 23, line 40, after "management", insert "industrial relations".

§ 78 Page 26, line 11, at end insert— (7) An industrial tribunal shall not consider a complaint whereby a dispute mentioned in sub-paragraph (6) is referred to it unless the complaint is presented to the tribunal before the end of the period of 3 months beginning with the date of the offer of employment or within such further period as the tribunal considers reasonable in a case where it is satisfied that it was not reasonably practicable for the complaint to be presented before the end of the period of 3 months. (8) An appeal shall lie to the Employment Appeal Tribunal on a question of law arising from any decision of or arising in proceedings before, an industrial tribunal under 576 this paragraph; and no appeal shall lie except to the Employment Appeal Tribunal from any decision of an industrial tribunal under this paragraph.".

§ 79 Page 23, line 28, leave out "four" and insert "the greater of—

(a) four, and
(b) the number equal to one third of the number of trustees at the time concerned (treating any fraction as one).".

§ 80 Page 23, line 34, after "expenses" insert "or loss of remuneration."

§ 81 Page 27, line 2, leave out from first "of" to end of line 4 and insert "the provision of the Exchequer and Audit Departmants Acts 1866 and 1921 which relate to appropriation accounts—"

§ 82 Page 23, line 21, at end insert— (4A) Each report shall include a statement of the total amount received by the Board by way of admission charges in the period covered by the report, and shall include information (in such detail as the Board think fit) about rates of, exemptions from and reductions in admission charges made by the Board.

§ 83 Page 28, line 6, after "management", insert "industrial relations."

§ 84 Page 29, line 27, at end insert— (7) An industrial tribunal shall not consider a complaint whereby a dispute mentioned in sub-paragraph (6) is referred to it unless the complaint is presented to the tribunal before the end of the period of 3 months beginning with the date of the offer of employment or within such further period as the tribunal considers reasonable in a case where it is satisfied that it was not reasonably practicable for the complaint to be presented before the end of the period of 3 months. (8) An appeal shall lie to the Employment Appeal Tribunal on a question of law arising from any decision of, or arising in proceedings before, an industrial tribunal under this paragraph; and no appeal shall lie except to the Employment Appeal Tribunal from any decision of an industrial tribunal under this paragraph.

§ 85 Page 23, line 44, leave out "three", and insert "the greater of—

(a) three, and
(b) the number equal to one third of the number of trustees at the time concerned (treating any fraction as one)."

§ 86 Page 30, line 3, after "expenses" insert "or loss of remuneration."

§ 87 Page 30, line 30, leave out "30 November" and insert "31 August."

§ 88 Page 30, line 39, after second "with" insert "the second."

§ 89 Page 31, line 12, at end insert— (5A) Each report shall include a statement of the total amount received by the Board by way of admission charges in the period covered by the report, and shall include information (in such detail as the Board think fit) about rates of, exemptions from and reductions in admission charges made by the Board.

§ 90 Page 30, line 25, leave out from beginning to end of line 33 and insert— 32. Subject to sub-paragraph (2A), the Board shall not be regarded as the servant or agent of the Crown or as enjoying any status, immunity or privilege of the Crown. (2) The trustees and their staff shall not be regarded as civil servants and the Board's property shall not be regarded as property of, or held on behalf of, the Crown. (2A) In relation to any matter as respects which the Board act by virtue of a direction under section 22(5), the Board shall enjoy the same privileges, immunities and exemptions as those enjoyed in relation to that matter by the Minister giving the direction.".

§ 91 Page 31, line 45, leave out "this part" and insert "the following provisions".

§ 92 Page 32, line 3, after "management", insert "industrial relations".

§ 93 Page 33, line 23, at end insert— (7) An industrial tribunal shall not consider a complaint whereby a dispute mentioned in sub-paragraph (6) is referred to it unless the complaint is presented to the tribunal before the end of the period of 3 months beginning with the date of the offer of employment or within such further period as the tribunal considers reasonable in a case where it is satisfied that it was not reasonably practicable for the complaint to be presented before the end of the period of 3 months. 577 (8) An appeal shall lie to the Employment Appeal Tribunal on a question of law arising from any decision of, or arising in proceedings before, an industrial tribunal under this paragraph; and no appeal shall lie except to the Employment Appeal Tribunal from any decision of an industrial tribunal under this paragraph.

§ 94 Page 34, line 3, after "expenses", insert "or loss of remuneration."

§ 95 Page 34, line 28, leave out "30 November" and insert "31 August."

§ 96 Page 34, line 37, after second "with" insert "the second."

§ 97 Schedule 2, page 36, line 12, at end insert— (7) An industrial tribunal shall not consider a complaint whereby a dispute mentioned in sub-paragraph (6) is referred to it unless the complaint is presented to the tribunal before the end of the period of 3 months beginning with the date of the offer of employment or within such further period as the tribunal considers reasonable in a case where it is satisfied that it was not reasonably practicable for the complaint to be presented before the end of the period of 3 months. (8) An appeal shall lie to the Employment Appeal Tribunal on a question of law arising from any decision of, or arising in proceedings before, an industrial tribunal under this paragraph; and no appeal shall lie except to the Employment Appeal Tribunal from any decision of an industrial tribunal under this paragraph.

§ 98 Schedule 3, page 36, line 23, leave out "Commission for Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings" and insert "Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission".

§ 99 Schedule 3, page 36, line 25, at beginning insert "Subject to sub-paragraph (1B)".

§ 100 Schedule 3, page 36, line 27, leave out from "Crown" to end of line 30 and insert— (1A) The members of the Commission and of their staff shall not be regarded as civil servants and the Commission's property shall not be regarded as property of, or held on behalf of, the Crown. (1B) In relation to any matter as respects which the Commission act by virtue of a direction under section 31(2) the Commission shall enjoy the same privileges, immunities and exemptions as those enjoyed in relation to that matter by the Secretary of State for the Environment.".

§ 101 Schedule 3, page 37, line 6, leave out from "finance" to end of line 7 and insert— (3A) In appointing members, the Secretary of State shall have regard to the desirability of at least one of them having knowledge of local government (as well as knowledge or experience of one or more of the subjects mentioned in sub-paragraph (3)).".

§ 102 Schedule 3, page 38, line 38, at end insert— (7) An industrial tribunal shall not consider a complaint whereby a dispute mentioned in sub-paragraph (6) is referred to it unless the complaint is presented to the tribunal before the end of the period of 3 months beginning with the date of the offer of employment or within such further period as the tribunal considers reasonable in a case where it is satisfied that it was not reasonably practicable for the complaint to be presented before the end of the period of 3 months. (8) An appeal shall lie to the Employment Appeal Tribunal on a question of law arising from any decision of, or arising in proceedings before, an industrial tribunal under this paragraph; and no appeal shall lie except to the Employment Appeal Tribunal from any decision of an industrial tribunal under this paragraph.".

§ 103 Schedule 3, page 39, line 3, after "contract", insert "in which the member is interested".

§ 104 Schedule 3, page 39, line 5, after "matter" insert "in which the member is interested".

§ 105 Schedule 3, page 39, line 26, leave out from "Commission" to second "of" in line 27 and insert "shall constitute at least one committee to advise them on ancient monuments and at least one to advise them on historic buildings, and may constitute other committees to advise them on those or other aspects".

§ 106 Schedule 3, page 39, line 33, after "expenses", insert "or loss of remuneration".

§ 107 Schedule 3, page 39, page 40, line 26, after "shall", insert— (a) be prepared within such period as the Secretary of State may direct; and (b)".

578

§ 108 Schedule 3, page 39, line 31, after "accounts", insert "(including any statement prepared under this paragraph)".

§ 109 Schedule 3, page 39, line 32, leave out from "State" to end of line 34.

§ 110 Schedule 3, page 39, line 36, after "is", insert "(a)".

§ 111 Schedule 3, page 39, line 38, at end insert "or (b) a member of the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy; but a firm may be so appointed if each of its members is qualified to be so appointed.".

§ 112 Schedule 3, page 39, line 41, after "with", insert "the second".

§ 113 Schedule 3, page 39, page 41, line 2, after "prepared", insert "and audited".

§ 114 Schedule 3, page 39, line 24, leave out "Commission for Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings" and insert "Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission".

§ 115 Schedule 4, page 43, line 28, leave out "situated in Scotland or Wales" and insert "not situated in England.".

§ 116 Schedule 4, page 43, line 30, leave out "situated in Scotland or Wales" and insert "not situated in England.".

§ 117 Schedule 4, page 43, line 31, leave out sub-paragraph (2).

§ 118 Schedule 4, page 43, line 46, at end insert "if the arrangements relate to property situated in England.".

§ 119 Schedule 4, page 44, line 11, leave out from beginning to end of line 13 and insert—

"(b) any building which is situated in England and in an area designated as a conservation area under section 277 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1971 and which appears to the Commission to be of special historic or architectural interest;
(c) any land which is situated in England and which comprises, or is contiguous or adjacent to, any building mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b) of this subsection;
(d) any garden or other land which is situated in England and which appears to the Commission to be of outstanding historic interest but which is not contiguous or adjacent to a building which appears to the Commission to be of outstanding historic or architectural interest."

§ 120 Schedule 4, page 43, line 14 leave out "Subject to subsection (4) of this section."

§ 121 Schedule 4, page 45, line 19, leave out from beginning to end of line 21, and insert—

"(a) any building which is situated in England and which appears to the Commission to be of outstanding historic or architectural interest;
(b) any land which is situated in England and which comprises, or is contiguous or adjacent to, any such building; or
(c) any garden or other land which is situated in England and which appears to the Commission to be of outstanding historic interest but which is not contiguous or adjacent to a building which appears to the Commission to be of outstanding historic or architectural interest."

§ 122 Schedule 4, page 45, line 25, leave out "situated in Scotland or Wales" and insert "not situated in England."

§ 123 Schedule 4, page 45, line 29, after "property", insert "the income from which is applicable for or towards the upkeep of property situated in England."

§ 124 Schedule 4, page 46, line 44, at end insert—

§ "Endowment of gardens.

§ 8AA—(1) Where any instrument coming into operation after the establishment of the Commission contains a provision purporting to be a gift of property to the Commission upon trust to use the income thereof (either for a limited time or in perpetuity) for or towards the upkeep of a garden or other land acquired or accepted by the Commission under section 5A(1)(d) of this Act, or a garden or other land which the Commission propose so to acquire or accept, or for or towards the upkeep of any such garden or other land together with other property situated in England, the Commission may accept the gift, and if they do so, and the provision does not constitute a charitable trust, the following provisions of this section shall have effect.

§ (2) The validity of the gift and of the trust to use the income as aforesaid (hereinafter referred to as "the endowment trust") shall be deemed not to be, or ever to have been affected by any rule of law or equity which would not have affected their validity if the trust had been charitable.

§ (3) In relation to the property (of whatsoever nature) comprised in the gift and any property for the time being 579 representing that property (hereinafter collectively referred to as "the trust fund") the Commission shall during the continuance of the endowment trust have the like powers of management, disposition and investment as, in the case of land held on trust for sale, are conferred by law on the trustees for sale in relation to the land and to the proceeds of sale thereof; but this subsection shall have effect without prejudice to any additional or larger powers conferred on the Commission by the trust instrument.

§ (4) If while the endowment trust continues an event happens such that immediately thereafter the Commission are not entitled to any interest in the garden or other land to which the trust relates, and apart from this subsection the endowment trust would not then be determined or be deemed to have failed, then on the happening of that event the endowment trust shall cease by virtue of this subsection and the trust shall devolve accordingly as on a failure of the trust.

§ (5) If the trust instrument contains a provision whereby on the failure or determination of the endowment trust the trust fund purports to be given, or to be directed to be held, on charitable trusts, the validity of that gift or direction shall be deemed not to be, or ever to have been, affected by any rule of law or equity relating to perpetuities."

§ 125 Schedule 4, page 46, line 45, leave out from beginning to end of line 4 on page 47 and insert— 8B.—(1) This section applies where the Commission compile a register of gardens and other land situated in England and appearing to them to be of special historic interest. (2) The Commission shall, as soon as practicable after including in the register an entry relating to any garden or land, notify the persons mentioned in subsection (3) of this section of the inclusion and send to them a copy of the entry. (3) The persons are—

(a) the owner and (if the owner is not the occupier) the occupier of the garden or land,
(b) any county planning authority, and any district planning authority, in whose area the garden or land (or any part of the garden or land) is situated, and
(c) the Secretary' of State.".

§ 126 Schedule 4, page 47, line 14, leave out "Commission for Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings" and insert "Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission".

§ 127 Schedule 4, page 47, line 26, leave out "Commission for Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings" and insert "Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission".

§ 128 Schedule 4, page 47, line 35, leave out "Commission for Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings" and insert "Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission".

§ 129 Schedule 4, page 47, line 43, leave out "Commission for Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings" and insert "Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission".

§ 130 Schedule 4, page 47, line 48, leave out "Commission for Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings" and insert "Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission".

§ 131 Schedule 4, page 48, line 1, leave out "Commission for Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings" and insert "Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission".

§ 132 Schedule 4, page 48, line 4, leave out "Commission for Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings" and insert "Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission".

§ 133 Schedule 4, page 48, line 10, after "section", insert "in relation to a building or part situated in England".

§ 134 Schedule 4, page 48, line 10, leave out "Commission for Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings" and insert "Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission".

§ 135 Schedule 4, page 48, line 13, leave out "Commission for Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings" and insert "Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission".

§ 136 Schedule 4, page 48, line 18, leave out "Commission for Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings" and insert "Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission".

580

§ 137 Schedule 4, page 48, line 20, leave out "without the consent of the Secretary of State"; and insert "unless—

(a) the land is situated in England, and
(b) the Secretary of State has consented."

§ 138 Schedule 4, page 48, line 23, leave out "Commission for Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings" and insert "Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission".

§ 139 Schedule 4, page 48, line 29, leave out "Commission for Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings" and insert "Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission".

§ 140 Schedule 4, page 49, line 9, leave out "Commission for Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings" and insert "Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission".

§ 141 Schedule 4, page 49, line 46, leave out "Commission for Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings" and insert "Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission".

§ 142 Schedule 4, page 50, line 13, leave out "Commission for Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings" and insert "Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission".

§ 143 Schedule 4, page 50, line 14, at end insert— (2B) Where the Secretary of State, after consulting with the Commission, notifies a local, county or district planning authority in writing that subsection (2A) of this section shall not affect the authority as regards any notice relating to any kind of application specified in the notification, then that subsection shall not affect the authority as regards any such notice. (2C) The Secretary of State shall send to the Commission a copy of any notification made under subsection (2B) of this section.".

§ 144 Schedule 4, page 50, line 14, at end insert— (3) Nothing in this paragraph affects a notice published before the appointed day".

§ 145 Schedule 4, page 50, line 18, leave out "Commission for Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings" and insert "Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission".

§ 146 Schedule 4, page 50, line 19, at end insert "and at the end of that subsection there shall be inserted— The Secretary of State shall not approve under this subsection any list compiled by the Commission if the list contains any building situated outside England.".

§ 147 Schedule 4, page 50, line 21, at end insert "and at the end of that subsection there shall be inserted— The Secretary of State shall consult with the Commission under this subsection only in relation to buildings which are situated in England.".

§ 148 Schedule 4, page 50, line 29, at end insert— 16A. At the end of section 100(1) of the 1971 Act (power of Secretary of State to serve listed building enforcement notice) there shall be inserted— Where the land is situated in England, the Secretary of State shall also consult with the Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission for England before he serves a notice under this subsection.".

§ 149 Schedule 4, page 50, line 35, leave out "Commission for Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings" and insert "Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission".

§ 150 Schedule 4, page 51, line 8, leave out sub-paragraph (6) and insert— (6) Nothing in sub-paragraph (3) affects works in respect of which a notice was served under section 101(5) of the 1971 Act before the appointed day".

§ 151 Schedule 4, page 51, line 9, at end insert— 17A. After section 114(3) of the 1971 Act (compulsory acquisition of listed building in need of repair) there shall be inserted— (3A) The Secretary of State shall consult with the Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission for England before he makes or confirms a compulsory purchase order for the acquisition by virtue of this section of any building situated in England.". 17B. After section 115(3) of the 1971 Act (repairs notice as preliminary to compulsory acquisition under section 114) there shall be inserted— (3A) The Secretary of State shall consult with the Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission for England before he serves or withdraws a repairs notice in relation to a building situted in England.". 17C. After section 277(6) of the 1971 Act (designation of conservation areas) there shall he inserted— 581 (6A) Where a designation under subsection (1) or (2) above, or a variation or cancellation of it, affects an area in England, subsection (6) above shall have effect as if the first reference to the Secretary of State were a reference to him and the Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission for England; and where a designation under subsection (4) above, or a variation or cancellation of it, affects an area in England, subsection (6) above shall have effect as if the second reference to a local planning authority were a reference to the authority and the Commission.".".

§ 152 Schedule 4, page 51, line 39, leave out "Commission for Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings" and insert "Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission".

§ 153 Schedule 4, page 51, line 42, leave out sub-paragraph (8).

§ 154 Schedule 4, Page 52, line 4, leave out "Commission for Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings- and insert "Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission".

§ 155 Schedule 4, Page 53, line 8, leave out "Commission for Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings" and insert "Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission".

§ 156 Schedule 4, Page 53, line 11, leave out sub-paragraph (13).

§ 157 Schedule 4, Page 53, line 18, leave out "Commission for Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings" and insert "Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission".

§ 158 Schedule 4, Page 54, line 8, leave out "Sub-paragraphs (2),(3) and (5) do" and insert "sub-paragraph (5) does".

§ 159 Schedule 4, Page 55, line 10, leave out sub-paragraph (4).

§ 160 Schedule 4, Page 55, line 18, leave out sub-paragraph (2).

§ 161 Schedule 4, Page 55, line 38, at end insert— (2) Nothing in this paragraph affects an authorisation given before the appointed day.".

§ 162 Schedule 4, Page 55, line 44, after "monument", insert "have been or".

§ 163 Schedule 4, Page 56, line 41, leave out sub-paragraph (2).

§ 164 Schedule 4, Page 58, line 39, leave out "obtain the consent of" and insert "consult with".

§ 165 Schedule 4, Page 59, line 40, at end insert— (4) At the end of the section there shall he inserted— (9) References to an ancient monument in subsection (1A) above, and in subsection (3) above so far as it applies for the purposes of subsection (1A), shall be construed as if the reference in section 61(12)(b) of this Act to the Secretary of State were to the Commission.".

§ 166 Schedule 4, Page 60, line 8, at end insert ", and at the end there shall be inserted— The Secretary of State shall consult with the Commission before he makes any regulations under this subsection in relation only to monuments situated in England.".

§ 167 Schedule 4, Page 60, line 31, after "State", insert "(in the first place)".

§ 168 Schedule 4, Page 61, line 6, leave out "situated outside" and insert "not situated in".

§ 169 Schedule 4, Page 60, line 12, leave out "or (g) above without the consent or and insert "above without consulting".

§ 170 Schedule 4, Page 60, line 13, at end insert— (6) The Commission may not enter into an agreement mentioned in subsection (1)(g) above without the consent of the Secretary of State.".

§ 171 Schedule 4, Page 60, line 14, leave out sub-paragraph (5).

§ 172 Schedule 4, Page 60, line 24, at end insert— (3B) References to an ancient monument in subsections (1) and (2) above, as amended by subsection (3A) above, shall be construed as if the reference in section 61(12)(b) of this Act to the Secretary of State were to the Commission.".

§ 173 Schedule 4, Page 60, line 35, at end insert— (3B) References to an ancient monument in subsections (1) and (2) above, as amended by subsection (3A) above, shall be construed as if the reference in section 61(12)(b) of this Act to the Secretary of State were to the Commission.

§ 174 Schedule 4, Page 62, line 3, leave out from "from" to end of line 8 and insert""(as the case may require)" to the end there shall be substituted "the Commission or the local authority in question (as the case may require)".".

§ 175 Schedule 4, Page 62, line 22, leave out sub-paragraph (5).

§ 176 Schedule 4, Page 62, line 41, leave out sub-paragraph (5).

§ 177 Page 63, line 12, leave out sub-paragraph (5).

§ 178 Schedule 4, Page 63, line 14, leave out paragraph 52 and insert— 52.—(1) In section 37 of the 1979 Act (exemptions from certain offences) at the end of subsection (3) there shall be inserted— The Secretary of State shall consult with the 582 Commission before giving or withdrawing a direction under this subsection in relation to land situated in England.". ".

§ 179 Schedule 4, Page 63, line 37, at end insert "(if the investigating authority is not the Commission). (11) On varying or revoking a direction given under subsection (8) above in relation to a site situated in England the Secretary of State shall notify the Commission (giving particulars of the effect of any variation) if the investigating authority is not the Commission.".

§ 180 Schedule 4, page 63, line 37, at end insert— (5) Nothing in sub-paragraph (2) affects the right of an investigating authority to excavate a site in respect of which an operations notice was served before the appointed day.

§ 181 Schedule 4, page 64, line 30, leave out "or building".

§ 182 Schedule 4, page 64, line 32, at end insert "; and the reference to an ancient monument in this subsection shall be construed as if the reference in section 61(12)(b) of this Act to the Secretary of State were to the Commission."

§ 183 Schedule 4, page 64, line 43, leave out "(if it is situated elsewhere)" and insert "(in any other case)".

§ 184 Schedule 4, page 65, line 3, at end insert— 58A.—(1) Section 49 of the 1979 Act (grants by Secretary of State to Architectural Heritage Fund) shall be amended as follows. (2) In subsection (1) for the words from "institution" to the end there shall be substituted "Architectural Heritage Fund". (3) After subsection (1) there shall be inserted— (1A) The Commission may make grants to the Architectural Heritage Fund for the purpose of enabling it to perform its functions in, or in relation to, England.". (4) In subsection (2) after "Secretary of State" there shall be inserted "or the Commission (as the case may be)". (5) At the end of the section there shall be inserted— (3) In this section 'the Architectural Heritage Fund' means the institution registered under that name under the Charities Act I 9602.'.".

§ 185 Schedule 4, page 65, line 7, at end insert— 59A. In section 54(1)(b) of the 1979 Act (treatment and preservation of finds) after "(4)(b)" there shall be inserted "or 6A(2)(a)".

§ 186 Schedule 4, page 65, line 15, leave out "Commission for Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings" and insert "Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission".

§ 187 Schedule 4, page 65, line 20, at end insert— (1A) After paragraph 2 there shall be inserted— 2A. As soon as practicable after receiving an application for scheduled monument consent in relation to a monument situated in England, the Secretary of State shall send a copy of the application to the Commission.".

§ 187A Schedule 4, page 66, line 13, at end insert—

§ "Pastoral Measure 1983 (No. 1)

§ 63A.—(1) Section 66 of the Pastoral Measure 1983 (transfer of redundant churches) shall be amended as follows.

§ (2) In subsection (1) after paragraph (b) there shall be inserted— (c) where a redundant building or any part thereof is situated in England and is vested in a diocesan board of finance, whether in pursuance of a pastoral scheme or a redundancy scheme or pending the making of a redundancy scheme, the board may, with the approval of the bishop and the Commissioners, enter into and carry out an agreement with the Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission for England for the acquisition and preservation by the Commission of the building or part with or without other land so situated and so vested in the board; (d) where a redundant building or any part thereof is situated in England and is vested in the Redundant Churches Fund in pursuance of a redundancy scheme or a pastoral scheme to which section 47 applies, the Fund may enter into and carry out an agreement with the Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission for England for the acquisition and preservation by the Commission of the building or part with or without other land so situated and so vested;" and for "the next two following subsections" there shall be substituted "subsections (2) and (3)".

583

§ (3) After subsection (1) there shall be inserted— (1A) The Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission for England shall not enter into an agreement under subsection (1)(c) or (d) without the consent of the Secretary of State.".

§ (4) In subsection (2)(a) after "The Secretary of State" there shall be inserted "or (as the case may be) the Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission for England", after "him" there shall be inserted "or them" and after "his" there shall be inserted "or their", and in subsection (2)(c) after "the Secretary of State" there shall he inserted "or (as the case may be) the Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission for England".

§ (5) In subsection (3) after "the Secretary of State" (in the first place) there shall be inserted "or (as the case may be) the Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission for England" and after "the Secretary of State" (in the second and third places) there shall be inserted "or the Commission".

§ (6) After subsection (3) there shall be inserted— (3A) Before giving his consent under subsection (3) in relation to a building or part situated in England, the Secretary of State shall consult with the Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission for England.".

§ (7) In subsection (4) after "the Secretary of State" (in the first place) there shall be inserted "or the Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission for England" and after "the Secretary of State" (in the second and third places) there shall be inserted "or the Commission (as the case may be)".

§ (8) After subsection (4) there shall be inserted— (4A) The Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission for England shall not enter into an agreement under subsection (4) unless—

(a) the land is situated in England, and
(b) the Secretary of State has consented.".

§ (9) In subsection (5) after "the Secretary of State" there shall be inserted "or (as the case may be) the Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission for England."

§ (10) After subsection (5) there shall be inserted— (6) Where a redundant building (or part) situated in England has been acquired for its preservation by the Secretary of State under subsection (1) either with or without any other land so situated, the Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission for England may by agreement with the Secretary of State undertake on his behalf the management and preservation of the building (or part) together with the other land (if any). (7) Where the Secretary of State has under subsection (4) acquired land situated in England for its maintenance with a building (or part), the Commission may undertake, in any agreement made under subsection (6) in relation to the building (or part), the maintenance of the land on behalf of the Secretary of State. (8) Where the Secretary of State has under subsection 5 acquired for their preservation the contents of a redundant building (or part), the Commission may undertake, in any agreement made under subsection (6) in relation to the building (or part), the preservation of the contents on behalf of the Secretary of State.".

§ 189 Schedule 5, page 66, line 23, at end insert— 1A. In Schedule 1 to that Act (Institutions to which certain transfers may be made) the following entries shall be inserted in the appropriate places—

The Armouries
The British Library
The British Museum (Natural History)."

§ 190 Schedule 4, page 66, leave out line 29 and insert "Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission."

§ 191 Schedule 4, page 66, line 35, leave out "At the end of and insert "In".

§ 192 Schedule 4, page 66, line 37, leave out "added" and insert "inserted after paragraph (c)."

§ 193 Schedule 4, page 66, line 38, leave out "(j)" and insert "(ca)."

§ 194 Schedule 4, page 66, line 39, leave out "(k)" and insert "(cb)."

§ 195 Schedule 4, page 66, line 40, leave out "(l)" and insert "(cc)."

584

§ 196 Schedule 4, page 66, line 41, leave out "(m)" and insert "(cd)."

§ 197 Schedule 4, page 66, line 41, at end insert—

§ "British Museum Act 1963

§ 4. At the end of section 9(1) of the British Museum Act 1963 (power of trustees to transfer pictures to certain institutions) there shall be added "or to the National Gallery Trustees or to the Tate Gallery Trustees".

§ Town and Country Planning Act 1971 (c.78)

§ 5. In paragraph 7 of Schedule 11 to the Town and Country Planning Act 1971 (listed building consent) the following shall be inserted after sub-paragraph (1)— 1(A) Where directions are in force under sub-paragraph (1) of this paragraph, the Secretary of State may give to any local planning authority a direction that in the case of such descriptions of applications for listed building consent as are specified in the direction, paragraph 5 or (as the case may be) paragraph 6 of this Schedule shall apply in relation to the authority. (1B) so long as the direction is in force, paragraph 5 or 6 (as the case may be) shall apply in the case of any application of any description so specified—

(a) made to the authority after the coming into force of the direction, or
(b) made to them (hut not disposed of by their granting or refusing consent) before the coming into force of the direction,

notwithstanding sub-paragraph (1) of this paragraph.

§ British Library Act 1972 (c.54)

§ 6. At the end of section 3(4) of the British Library Act 1972 there shall be inserted— This subsection does not apply to pictures (as to which there is a power of transfer in section 9 of the British Museum Act 1963).".

§ 198 In the Title, line 7, leave out "Commission for Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings" and insert "Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission."

§ 199 In the Title, line 11, leave out "repeal section 4(2) of the National Gallery and Tate Gallery Act 1954" and insert "amend certain enactments relating to the heritage."

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 71 to 199 en bloc. I have already spoken to these amendments—and I should like to make it clear that I spoke to Amendments Nos. 134 to 136 when speaking to Amendment No. 54.

§ Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Earl of Avon.)

§ On Question, Motion agreed to.