§ 3.17 p.m.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have yet traced the published interview with the President of Peru concerning the sinking of the "Belgrano" and, if so, whether they propose to take any action.
§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Belstead)My Lords, the noble Lord has kindly sent me the text of an interview published by an Argentine magazine last January in which President Belaúnde described his efforts to assist a negotiated solution to the Falklands crisis during the first three weeks of May 1982. No action by Her Majesty's Government is called for.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, does the noble Lord the Minister recall that on 20th April, when I asked him a similar Question, his Answer was to the effect that he had consulted the British Embassy in Lima and the Swiss section dealing with British affairs in Buenos Aires? Does he not agree that he would have saved the expenditure of this public money if he had walked down the corridor, where, at that time, there was in the Library of another place a copy of the interview to which I referred in the edition of Siete Dias for 26th January? Would he also agree that in his answer to my letter, in which I suggested that he had misled the House on this occasion, he has not in any way cast any doubt on the fact that the sinking of the "Belgrano" was coincidental with the peace negotiations led by Peru and that, in fact, his right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary was at that time discussing peace? Can he tell the House whether the Foreign Secretary was informed of the decision to sink the "Belgrano"?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, I think it was reasonable to infer from the noble Lord's Question on 20th April and from the summary that appeared in a British newspaper on 20th March that the noble Lord's interest was being expressed in a recent statement by President Belaunde rather than in a three-months-old press interview. The noble Lord says to the House that the sinking of the "Belgrano" and the mediation efforts by President Belaunde were coincidental. May-be they were; but the press report to which I now know the noble Lord is referring, which was published in Argentina, tells how the President of Peru continued active negotiations for more than two more weeks, says that the British agreed to listen to any proposal and records that those negotiations were finally ended by unilateral Argentine action.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, can the noble Lord tell the House whether the Foreign Secretary was informed of the decision to sink the "Belgrano" before 554 that decision was conveyed to the submarine commander?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, the British Government had established the maritime exclusion zone on 12th April and had also warned, on 23rd April, that any approach by Argentine warships which could amount to a threat to British forces would encounter the appropriate response. There was therefore a possibility of action at any time against an Argentine warship disregarding those warnings. The position of my right honourable friend, therefore, does not come into the matter.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, if it is the case as the noble Minister has said, the British having said categorically that anything within the 200-mile radius of the fleet would suffer attack and the "Belgrano" being miles away from that 200-mile radius, who then gave the instruction to disobey that word of honour of the British public?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, this is ground which has been gone over many times before. The "General Belgrano" was kept in such a position by the Argentine authorities, despite warnings that Argentine warships which could pose a threat to British forces would be subject to attack.
§ Baroness Ewart-BiggsMy Lords, in view of the many Argentine casualties incurred by the sinking of the "Belgrano", would the Minister say what arrangements he would authorise for the visit by families of Argentine servicemen who were killed in the Falklands war to visit the graves there? Would the Minister not agree that, apart from the point of view of compassion and humanity, the lack of enthusiasm towards such a visit is a greater tool for propaganda in the hands of the Argentinians than would be a visit itself?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, there is no lack of enthusiasm: but we are now getting on to a different question.
§ Lord Orr-EwingMy Lords, would my noble friend assure the House just once more—not only because the contents of this Question have been shown to be false but because press reports have also carried the same innuendoes—that the current allegations about the facts surrounding the sinking of the "Belgrano" have absolutely no foundation whatsoever?
§ Lord BelsteadYes, my Lords, I will do so. The "General Belgrano" was sunk solely for military reasons—because she posed a threat to ships of the task force. The House should know that thorough investigation has shown that knowledge of the Peruvian proposals reached London only after the attack on the "General Belgrano". The record, of which I think all noble Lords are aware, shows quite clearly how hard we tried before and after that sinking to reach a negotiated settlement.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, although it may be the case that the electoral benefit derived by the Conservative Party from the sinking and subsequent victory are entirely coincidental, will not—
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, will not the noble Lord bear in mind—
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I think it would be the wish of the House that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, should ask his supplementary question.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, that is what I was trying to do. I was about to ask the noble Lord whether he would bear in mind, in relation to the supplementary question of my noble friend Lady Ewart-Biggs, Winston Churchill's dictum, "In victory, magnanimity".
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, not only have we shown magnanimity in this matter but we have been ready to offer proper facilities; but, as the noble Lord knows, the arrangements were not accepted by those who were organising the visit.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, if the noble Lord is attempting to maintain his stand that the news of the Peruvian negotiations reached London and the Prime Minister, who took this decision, only after the sinking of the "Belgrano", how does he equate that with the statement of his right honourable friend the Foreign Minister, who, on arriving in Washington before the sinking of the "Belgrano", said that there was no intention to take any further military action? May I ask him whether he has seen the press reports referred to by his noble friend Lord Orr-Ewing, the BBC programme on 29th April and also the reports given by Mr. Paul Foot both in the Daily Mirror and in this week's New Statesman, which support the point that I have been trying to make to him?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, I am surprised that the noble Lord ascribes such a statement to my right honourable friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary at a time when the task force was steaming towards the Falkland Islands. So far as the rest of the noble Lord's supplementary question is concerned, I am very pleased to put the record absolutely clear. The first intimation that the Government had of the existence of any proposals from the President of Peru came in a series of conversations between Mr. Pym and Mr. Haig in Washington on 2nd May. The result of these conversations was telegraphed to London at 2215 GMT on 2nd May—over three hours after the attack on the "General Belgrano".
§ Lord LeatherlandMy Lords, I am a very simple person and I have a simple question. If we had not sunk the Belgrano", would the "Belgrano" probably have sunk some of our ships?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, the answer to this question has been made clear by my honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary for the Armed Forces on 24th March and 2nd May. The answer to the noble Lord is that there were signs that our ships and men were threatened by a pincer attack, and that that involved the "General Belgrano".