Nuclear Weapons: General Altenburg (Hansard, 9 May 1983)

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order paper.

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, we are not aware of any such statement by General Altenburg.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that this statement was very widely publicised? Is he further aware that there is a reputable scientific body of opinion that takes the view that the deployment of the cruise missile would further destabilise a dangerous situation? Finally, is he also aware that if the Government win—

Noble Lords
Reading!

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, if the Government win the coming election—

§ The Earl of Onslow
When the Government win, my Lords!

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
—the very strong probability is that there will be no election after that as we shall almost certainly be overtaken by a nuclear holocaust?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, General Altenburg suggested that if war did break out the risks of escalation might actually serve as an incentive to conclude hostilities rather than lead on inevitably to all-out nuclear conflict.

The Marquess of Aberdeen and Temair
My Lords, will the noble Lord ask the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins of Putney, whether his fear that the population of this country might need to be evacuated could be averted if the Soviet Union were offered bases for their nuclear weapons in this country as well as the American's and our own?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, in terms of the original Answer which I gave to the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, the whole idea of evacuation of this country falls.

§ The Earl of Lauderdale
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that it might be helpful if the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, would tell us where the statement that he quoted was publicised?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I should be very interested to hear where it came from.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that the important practical point is that the talks now going on at Geneva should be successful and should be brought to a constructive conclusion? Can he say whether the Andropov proposals are on the agenda of the Geneva talks and what progress is being made at those talks?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, with respect to the noble Lord, that is a totally different question from the Question on the Order Paper, which dealt with quotations, or supposedly quotations, from General Altenburg. The whole question of the talks at Geneva and the inclusion of the British deterrent in them is a different matter altogether. The British deterrent is a strategic deterrent of last resort. We do not possess it in order to offer protection to our friends. It is for us and for our own purposes and whether or not it is included is something which has been answered on many occasions in your Lordships' House.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, with great respect, the noble Lord himself commented on the nature and possible length of a nuclear war. These are matters which are now being discussed between the USSR and the United States of America at Geneva and they are vital to the talks that are taking place. Is the noble Lord aware that his noble friend Lord Belstead has said on many occasions at that Dispatch Box that we are in close consultation with the United States upon the progress of these talks? Therefore, would the noble Lord be good enough to say clearly whether the proposals are on the table at Geneva and whether the talks are proceeding successfully?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, with respect, that simply does not arise from the Question that is on the Order Paper.

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, does my noble friend have any idea as to where the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins of Putney, wishes us all to be evacuated, and whether the noble Lord has plans to do a pathfinding mission to this unknown country himself on a one-way ticket?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords. I have some very sound ideas myself both as to where the noble Lord might be evacuated, and as to where my noble friend and I might be evacuated, but I think it might be better not to go into that now.

§ Lord Kennet
My Lords, can the noble Lord confirm that his last answer but two about the British thermonuclear force being a deterrent of last resort for this country, constitutes a change in the arrangement whereby it is assigned to the Supreme Allied Commander Europe?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, again I am afraid that that is a completely different question and wide of the mark.

Viscount St. Davids
My Lords, is the noble Lord not saddened, although no doubt not alarmed, by the enormous number of ways produced by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, of asking the same question over and over again?

§ Lord Glenarthur
Not alarmed, my Lords, but certainly saddened.

§ Viscount Trenchard
My Lords, would my noble friend agree that the important point is to continue to prevent war through remaining strong and deterring any possible aggression? Further, would he agree that if we one-sidedly throw our weapons away, we should make war and the loss of our freedom much more likely?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I entirely agree with everything that my noble friend says.

Lord Paget of Northampton
My Lords, would the noble Lord tell us whether serious consideration can be given to the suggestion from behind me that everybody should be invited to have a nuclear base here? Then, under the system of deterrence, we would indeed be an effective nuclear-free zone.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, would the noble Lord and the party opposite not agree that, on the question of nuclear war, there is at least a serious element, and that perhaps they might attune their minds to that particular element before we conclude this Question Time? For example, will the noble Lord not agree that what perturbs many people here and some of the people of our ally nations is the submission during the last big debate that, if there was an emergent invasion through Germany to France, in order to protect herself Great Britain would attempt to wipe out Russian armies with nuclear weapons, which would have devastating effects on the civil populations of NATO countries?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, with respect, the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, is again going completely wide of the Question on the Order Paper. I do not think it would be right for me to go into another long debate on the whole nuclear issue, which was admirably covered last week by my noble friend Lord Belstead.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that we seem to be agreed that General Altenburg made a statement but that we have seen different versions of that statement? Would it not be helpful to all noble Lords if the noble Lord were to clarify the issue by including the actual authorised statement in the Official Report—of course, not authorised by the noble Lord, Lord Dacre—which General Altenburg himself agreed that he made?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I am quite sure that, if the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, contacted the radio source in Germany which conducted the interview, they would be very happy to supply him with their translation.