Divorce Jurisdiction, Court Fees and Legal Aid (Scotland) Bill (Hansard, 30 March 1983)

§ The Minister of State, Scottish Office (The Earl of Mansfield)
My Lords, on behalf of my noble and 1566 learned friend the Lord Advocate, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.

§ Lord McCluskey
My Lords, before your Lordships agree to that Motion, may I say one further word about the Bill? It is a Bill which is modest in appearance but undoubtedly will effect substantial changes in the day-to-day practice of the courts in Scotland. Its effects have been discussed in a somewhat anecdotal and speculative way. I would repeat something I said earlier—but I should like the Government to take it on board—and that is that many of us in Scotland feel that the methods whereby the effects of such changes can be studied are inadequate. In other words, it is impossible to say with any confidence and accuracy precisely what the financial effects of such a Bill will be. It is impossible to predict with any accuracy what the effect will be upon the incidental business and the general business both of the Court of Session and of the sheriff courts in Scotland.
We are, in effect, required to take rather too much on trust in relation to a matter of this kind, and the Government are also required to take too much on trust. At one stage I suggested—and I shall come back to it in another context—that there ought to be in Scotland an institute of judicial administration which could examine this type of question. I hope that the Government will think seriously about that suggestion and how they might best use the universities to do real research into the day-to-day operation of our system of justice in Scotland. Meantime, however, I wish these changes well. I hope that many consultations which the Government were good enough to promise in the course of the proceedings on the Bill will be in fact fruitful. I thank the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Advocate, through the noble Earl, for his courtesy in handling the Bill.

§ The Earl of Mansfield
My Lords, I do not think it altogether proper that a member of the English Bar should intrude when, as I understand it, the Faculty of Advocates are losing some of their jurisdiction so far as undefended divorces are concerned; therefore I do not seek to do so. But on behalf of the Government and, more especially, my noble and learned friend, may I say that he has been considerably exercised by the very constructive part which the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, played in the Committee stage of the Bill and, indeed, on Second Reading; and that also goes, of course, for my noble friend Lord Selkirk and for various other noble and learned Lords, such as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wilson of Langside. I should like to pay tribute to all those noble Lords. On behalf of my noble and learned friend I give the undertaking which is sought by the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey. I have no doubt that this Bill will go a long way to improve the law of Scotland so far as this small but important arena is concerned.

§ The Earl of Mansfield
My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill do now pass.

§ Lord Wilson of Langside
My Lords, before your Lordships pass this Bill, having listened to what the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, has said I wonder if I may just add a word of truly warm welcome to the Bill. In my view the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Advocate, is to be congratulated for his determination to prepare the Bill, to present it to the House with such care and skill, and to see it passed in the face of not inconsiderable opposition from certain quarters of the legal establishment in Edinburgh. He was assisted, perhaps, by the circumstance that he had the support of the Law Society of Scotland. It is perhaps coincidental that this year the president of the Law Society of Scotland is a distinguished Glasgow solicitor. I have no doubt that his distinguished leadership contributed to the support which the law Society has given to this very sensible measure. My only criticism of it was that it should have been dealt with at about the same time as the Divorce (Scotland) Act was passed, I think in the time of the Government of which the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, was a member. But, to coin a phrase, better late than never.
I wish this Bill every success. If it does not have success in relation to the expenditure on legal aid or jurisdiction in divorce, many people will say, "I told you so", and have a little bit of a schadenfreude in their turn. What the Government will then have to do is to take a long hard look again and monitor the whole business very seriously, and I hope that they will do so. If they do that, there is no reason why the Bill should not achieve the objectives which the Government set for it. I wish it well.