The School Meals Service (Hansard, 23 March 1983)

§ Baroness David
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, as I said to the noble Baroness, Lady David, in answer to a supplementary question which she asked me on 10th March, it is no part of Government policy that the school meals service should be abolished. Public expenditure forecasts adequately provide for its continuation. It is, however, a matter for individual local education authorities to determine whether they wish to provide a paid meals service. Equally, it is for individual authorities to determine what arrangements are made for the supervision of pupils at midday in the light of their general responsibilities.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer. May I ask him whether he agrees that there are some local authorities which are not providing a service except for children who have to have free meals? May I ask him how those children will be kept secret, so to speak? The intention is, is it not, that they should not be recognised as having free meals? If no other children are having free meals, how is this to be achieved? Could the Minister say what the department's view is about what is going to happen to those children who could possibly be wandering around the streets at lunchtime?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, so far as the provision of school meals is concerned, to date only three local education authorities—Dorset, Herefordshire and Worcestershire and Lincolnshire—have abolished paid meals, and then only in primary schools. The Merton authority plan to abolish their paid meals service in both primary and secondary schools as from September of this year. However, the Government are not aware of any other authorities which intend to abolish paid meals. So far as concerns the question of dealing—if that is the right word—with the children who get free meals, obviously this is a sensitive issue. It is for individual schools to work out how they are going to do it. Again, it is up to the local education authorities themselves to say how the children are supervised during meal times.

§ Baroness Jeger
My Lords, if children are let out and go wandering around the streets looking for their dinner in cafes, is there not a danger that this might contribute to truancy? Will the Minister try to monitor what is happening in schools where authorities have abandoned regular school dinners, to ascertain whether all the children come back to school in the afternoon or whether afternoon truancy increases?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, obviously children go and find their meals elsewhere, even where education authorities are providing a full school meals service. A survey of the school meals service is being conducted, but which authorities have taken part is confidential. I could not say whether the survey includes the three authorities I have named which have cut down on their school meals service.

§ Lord Kilmarnock
My Lords, could the noble Earl answer the question about the position in the authorities which have ceased to provide meals for those children who are statutorily entitled to free meals and milk? Would not the Minister agree that as packed lunches are notoriously more expensive than centrally 1104 cooked meals the recent increase in child benefit will be largely taken up in paying for packed lunches where meals are not provided?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, there is a statutory duty on all authorities to provide free meals for those entitled to them. As to whether packed meals are cheaper or more expensive than centrally cooked meals, I am afraid I am not in a position to answer, but presumably Merton think that they must be, otherwise they would not be doing it.

§ Baroness Gaitskell
My Lords, would not the Minister agree that it is perhaps not so much a question of truancy as, with so many mothers going out to work, of children being hungry unless they are supplied with some kind of hot or cold meal, both of which are good?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, this is very much up to the mothers. In fact, before they made this decision the majority of school children in Merton were bringing their meals with them, anyway.

§ Baroness Ewart-Biggs
My Lords, is the Minister aware that a recent study of 10-year-olds showed that one child out of five leaves for school without an adequate breakfast? Would not the Minister agree that for many of the children of poorer families the school meal is the major meal of the day? Would he not agree that it is of the greatest importance that there should be some level of nutritional value in the school meal, as there was before the 1980 Act?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I believe that we went over this ground about a fortnight ago. The whole idea is that poorer children are provided with free meals. That is the whole reason behind the Government's thinking.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, does the noble Earl not agree that if the Government had not brought pressure on local authorities to cut expenditure on school meals by 50 per cent. within a short period of two years, the situation would not have been as difficult as it is now?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, it is up to anyone to suggest that, if anything is cut, pressures are bound to be there. It is the feeling on our side of the House that cuts have to be made in some shape or form, and this is one of the alternatives available.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that many of us think it is a piece of nonsense for him to say that it is not the Government's policy to end school meals, when it was the Government's own Bill, which they forced through Parliament, which is allowing local authorities to do this? Is he not ashamed that, after all these years, school meals are being ended in our schools?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, that is a matter of the noble Lord's opinion as opposed to my opinion.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, will the noble Earl not confirm that it was the Government's Bill, which they put through Parliament against all the Opposition parties, which permits the ending of school meals?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, it does not permit the ending of school meals to children who deserve them most.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, the noble Earl knows what I mean—it is the ending of school meals for all the rest of our children. It is a matter of some importance that hundreds of thousands of our children are being deprived of school meals because of this Government.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I really must argue this with the noble Lord, Lord Glenamara. It will cost about £1,000 million to introduce free school meals for every child in the country, and I do not think that even the noble Lord, Lord Glenamara, is suggesting that. There is money available for local education authorities who wish to provide a meals service. In fact, some two-thirds of local education authorities in this country are providing a school meals service free, even to children above the base limit.

§ Baroness Ewart-Biggs
My Lords, does the noble Earl not agree that the health of school children can only be safeguarded if there is a nutritional level within those free school meals to which certain children from poorer families are entitled? It is that which worries us, when so much of the cost on local education authorities is going into other areas except food.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I thought that I answered this on 10th March, when I said two things. First, that there is a survey being done on this, which will be available next year. Also, there is no nutrition in food that is being wasted, and a great deal of food was being wasted before this legislation was passed.