§ 3.5 p.m.
§ Lord BethellMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware that British Airways are now running certain flights from London to Brussels, Amsterdam and Frankfurt on a Club-class only basis, and whether they will refuse any application by British Airways for tariff increases on European routes until proper provision is made for Economy class passengers.
§ Lord LyellMy Lords, British Airways offers Club-class fares and facilities only on seven out of 194 flights a week between London and Brussels, Amsterdam and Frankfurt. Economy fares are not part of British Airways' new pricing structure on these routes, but the Civil Aviation Authority is currently seeking to encourage British Airways to make a proportion of seats on all flights available at the cheaper Eurobudget fares. I believe that these discussions are the right way to pursue the matter at this stage.
§ Lord BethellMy Lords, can my noble friend tell me whether, while flying to Europe over the past two years, he has noticed that the partition dividing Club-class from Eurobudget-class has been moving steadily from the front towards the back of the aircraft until, as he has just pointed out, on some flights it has disappeared entirely? In his talks with the CAA and British Airways will my noble friend point out that the Club-class was introduced as an alternative to the then Economy class, and that British Airways ought to provide the two services, since it was on that basis that it put the original proposals for ratification by the CAA?
§ Lord LyellMy Lords, I am most interested in what my noble friend said about the partition moving back and forth throughout the aircraft. I fear that I have not noticed this, since those of us who live in Scotland travel by one class on the "Shuttle", on which there is no partition. I shall certainly note the noble Lord's points and bring them to the attention of the Civil Aviation Authority and British Airways. However, I am sure that he will be aware that the Club-class and the Eurobudget-class tickets are part of the new European product in British Airways' scheme. From the outset of the scheme, approximately two years ago, it was envisaged that on business routes, such as those mentioned and indeed greatly utilised by my noble friend and his colleagues, there would be times when demand for Club-class would be so great that all-Club-class flights would be provided. British Airways has pointed out to us that the number of such flights is small: as I mentioned to my noble friend, there are only seven out of 194. British Airways considers—and we believe that it is sensible—that when demand for Club-class is exceptionally high, it makes good sense commercially to cater for the requirement at the expense of lower rated traffic. It is British Airways' 828 decision, and we believe that it should be free to pursue it.
§ Lord StrathcarronMy Lords, will my noble friend not agree that it is a waste of money to pay extra for Club-class on Trident aircraft, where one is herded together with other passengers in exactly the same way as with Eurobudget-class and it is impossible to drink the difference in fare in the time available?
§ Lord LyellMy Lords, I do not know why it always falls to me to engage in drinking competitions with my noble friends. I should willingly attempt to compete with my noble friend, and certainly I shall raise his point with British Airways in regard to flights where there is a two-class system in Trident aircraft, whether my noble friend is flying on a Mark I, Mark II, or Mark III Trident.
§ Lord BeswickMy Lords, will the noble Lord agree that no one is compelled to go by Club-class? There are ample economy services available—
§ Lord BeswickNoble Lords should look at the timetable. Will the noble Lord explain the reasoning of the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, who has been arguing for deregulation, who wants a free-for-all in fares, and yet complains when British Airways exercises its marketing judgment in offering these particular services?
§ Lord LyellMy Lords, I should hesitate to intervene in any free-for-all, even in your Lordships' style, between the noble Lord and my noble friend Lord Bethell. Certainly it is far from being within my capacity to explain what is in the mind of my noble friend. He has been pursuing the subject for some considerable time, and I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, will be able to read in the Official Report the various very interesting debates initiated by my noble friend.
§ Lord Boyd-CarpenterMy Lords, particularly in the difficult situation facing the civil aviation industry at the moment, is it not best to leave these commercial matters to the judgment of British Airways with the guidance of the Civil Aviation Authority?
§ Lord LyellMy Lords, I would agree wholeheartedly with my noble friend.
§ Lord WhaddonMy Lords, is it not a fact that on certain flights from London to East Europe which are served only by British Airways and Eastern European airlines, a similar situation exists where no private airlines are operating and therefore passengers are put under monopolistic pressures? Will the noble Lord look into this and make sure that economy seats are available?
§ Lord LyellMy Lords, I think we are straying a little wide of the original Question. I can inform the noble Lord that currently, under the winter timetables, there are 17 all-Club-class flights out of a total of 1,368 flights. These will be reduced to 12 all-Club-class 829 flights for the coming summer. Various flights are Club-class only, but I do not see any of them which go to Eastern Europe. If the noble Lord would wish to put down another Question about tickets to East Europe, I will endeavour to answer it.
§ Lord BethellMy Lords, surely my noble friend would agree that it is dangerous and inappropriate to leave these matters to the commercial judgment of British Airways when British Airways are part of a cartel which fixes these prices conspiratorially together with the other airlines on the route?
§ Lord LyellMy Lords, I believe that my noble friend is referring to commercial practice undertaken by British Airways and other airlines. I am sure that he will be the first to agree that this does not prevent other airlines from offering a competitive alternative. I would stress to my noble friend that, as he knows and as your Lordships will realise, there are alternatives. On the three routes having Club-class only flights by British Airways there are valid alternatives returning to London from Brussels, from Amsterdam and from Frankfurt.