Schools: Religious and Moral Education (Hansard, 15 March 1983)

§ Lord Sandford
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, the Government do not collect detailed information about the curriculum provided in individual schools, but we have made it clear that we expect local education authorities, governing bodies and schools to live up to their statutory responsibilities for the provision of religious education.

§ Lord Sandford
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. May I ask what is the purpose of having Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Schools if they are not able to keep his right honourable friend supplied with important information of this kind?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Schools are extremely busy. I think that there are some 25,000 schools—or is it 250,000?—I shall have to write to my noble friend regarding that figure. The Inspectors gets round on average to each school about every 100 years, so it would take them an awful long time to find out what is happening.

The Lord Bishop of Rochester
My Lords, in the light of the requirement on every local authority to produce an agreed syllabus for religious education, may I ask the Minister what encouragement and what additional resources are the Government giving to the authorities to implement such syllabuses throughout the whole of the maintained sector of education?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I can tell the right reverend Prelate that there is no such grant for producing a new syllabus, but many authorities are doing it at this very time, and I think a number of authorities are engaged in producing new agreed syllabuses.

§ Lord Blyton
My Lords, is the Minister aware that when I was chairman of an education committee my biggest difficulty was to get the various denominations to agree on an agreed syllabus for the schools on religion? It is very difficult for education committees with the different denominations to get agreement among them.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I am delighted to say that I found myself in the same position as the noble Lord, Lord Blyton, in that I also was involved in getting an agreed syllabus when I was a member of an education committee. It was a long and complicated task. But I understand that things are a bit easier these days, and it is something which is not too difficult to obtain now.

§ Lord Alexander of Potterhill
My Lords, as every school in England and Wales provided religious instruction before the passing of the 1944 Education Act, is it possible that compulsion may be negative rather than positive?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I suppose that that could be the case. I should like to say that every school in England and Wales does provide religious education. On the other hand, the Government very much hope that they will.

§ Lord Brockway
My Lords, have the Government considered the report of the Committee of Moral Education of which a Roman Catholic bishop is the chairman? Might not this be the solution in view of the many different religions now represented in schools, and even some who have no religion?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, the Government consider that moral education is an essential constituent of the school curriculum. Perhaps I might be permitted to quote from the school curriculum document which says: Moral education in schools seeks to promote integrity, considerate behaviour and the pupil's understanding of the relationship between action and beliefs … Awareness of moral values is encouraged by appropriate and well-planned assemblies, as well as by good pastoral care. The school needs to make explicit to parents, pupils and the school community its aims in moral education; and the head teacher and his staff need to keep curricular, pastoral and other provision under review so as to ensure that these aims are translated into effective practice. I do not think there is too much difference between the Churches and others on what constitutes moral education.

§ Lord Nugent of Guildford
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the value of religious education in the schools depends primarily on the individual teacher, that it is the spark of Christian love in the teacher which touches the children and makes the education worthwhile? Is he satisfied that the teacher training for religious education is adequate to meet the need?

§ The Earl of Swinton
I am grateful to my noble friend for making that point, my Lords. I think that perhaps we should be careful when using the word "Christian" in this context; it is not in the 1944 Act. "Religious education" is, but "Christian education" specifically is not. I would say that what my noble friend says is obviously very true: that the example of a teacher's behaviour, particularly applying to moral perhaps rather more than religious education, is most important. As for training, I understand that last October there were about 45 newly-trained religious education teachers without posts, which shows that if there are vacancies they can be filled by appropriately qualified teachers.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, is the Minister aware that what he said about the 1944 Act may mislead a great many people? Is he aware that when the Act was passed it was certainly the intention of Parliament that it should refer to Christian teaching? While we are all in favour of moral teaching in the schools, may I ask whether he accepts that it surely is the birthright of children in this country to be taught about the Christian story? Does he agree that that is not being done in a great many schools, contrary to the law? What are the Government going to do about that?

§ The Earl of Swinton
I am no lawyer, my Lords, so I think it would be best if I read from the 1944 Act. Section 26 refers to religious instruction and says: religious instruction given to any pupils in attendance at a county school in conformity with the requirements of subsection (2) … shall be given in accordance with an agreed syllabus adopted for the school or for those pupils and shall not include any catechism or formulary which is distinctive of any particular religious denomination". As I read that—I am a committed Christian and I am proud to stand up and be counted—I do not see the word "Christian". I think that is the whole balance of the argument; we have many ethnic minorities in this country now, many of whom are devout Moslems or have various other religions. That is one of the complications, and it is something that has to be faced up to.

§ Lord Glenamara
Of course there are ethnic minorities, my Lords, and provision must be made for them, and I agree that they are in large numbers, but may I ask the noble Earl whether he agrees that there should be Christian teaching in our schools? Would he further agree that that is not so in a great many schools? What do the Government propose to do about that?

§ Viscount Eccles
My Lords, further to that supplementary from the noble Lord, Lord Glenamara—and while I agree with him that when the Act was passed we all thought of Christian education—may I ask my noble friend to say what happens when there is no teacher on the staff who feels competent to teach Christian education? Is the law then allowed to lapse?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I think we shall get very involved if I try to answer two questions at once. To answer my noble friend Lord Eccles, I was not here in 1944 and I was not responsible for the wording of the Act. Whatever the spirit of the Act—we have had this argument many times in relation to many measures in your Lordships' House when certain words are not included in an Act; the statute can be interpreted only in the way it is worded—I personally would love to see Christian education taught in every school in the country, but whether or not that is practicable I do not know. Of course, the choice is open to many parents to send their children to an aided school, where they can get the teaching of their particular denomination.

§ Lord Sandford
My Lords, does my noble friend think it is satisfactory for him to say that he hopes religious education will be taught in all our schools, but not to be in a position to tell the House the answer to my quite clear Question as to the number of schools in which religious education is not being taught? Does he agree that, whereas head teachers have a wide discretion as to what they teach and how they teach it in relation to all other subjects, in respect of religious education Parliament has expressed the will that it should be taught to all children in all schools for the whole of their school life, primarily according to agreed syllabuses which are certainly based on the Christian faith, but also in respect of other denominations and other faiths by withdrawal classes? Is it not really necessary for my noble friend, his right honour 599 able friend and the local education authorities to bestir themselves and see that the will of Parliament is properly complied with?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, there seems to be an awful misunderstanding about what the Act actually says. It does not say that all children in every school should be taught religious education. It says that religious education shall be taught in every school, and it does not specify the amount of hours or number of children who will be taught it. It is easy to ask me why I cannot produce the figures. Somebody could get up next week and ask me how many schools in the country are teaching German, French, Spanish or whatever; we should need an army of civil servants going round every school finding out these very detailed facts.

§ Lord Nugent of Guildford
Nevertheless, my Lords, is my noble friend aware that it does just happen that religious education is the only specific item of education referred to in the Act?

§ The Earl of Swinton
That is a very fair question, my Lords.

§ Lord Alexander of Potterhill
My Lords, before the passing of the Education Act 1944 religious education was given in every school in England and Wales. If the names of the schools where religious education is not given were reported to the Minister, then quite clearly action could be taken; but in the absence of the names I think it would be unsound to assume that the facts were necessarily valid.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Alexander of Potterhill, for saying that, which is of course true. I think that what my noble friend Lord Sandford is saying is that not every child in every school is being given religious education, but that is really not the point. It is very difficult to prove or disprove whether religious education is playing some part in the curriculum. There may not even be a class for religious education, but it may come into the teaching of morals, English, or history. It would be very difficult to prove in a court case that religious education was not given. However, if any noble Lord wishes to bring forward examples of schools where it is not taking place, I should be delighted to take them up with my right honourable friend.