Appropriation (Northern Ireland) Order 1983

HL Deb 14 March 1983 vol 440 cc518-42

5.58 p.m.

The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (The Earl of Gowrie)

My Lords, I beg to move that the draft Appropriation (Northern Ireland) Order 1983, which was laid before this House on 16th February, be approved. This order is being made under paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to the Northern Ireland Act 1974. Its purpose is to appropriate the 1982–83 Spring Supplementary Estimates and the 1983–84 Vote on Account of Northern Ireland departments.

Part I of the schedule to the draft order describes the supplementary provisions sought. These amount in total to some £62 million and bring the total voted provision for expenditure by Northern Ireland departments for this financial year to £2,581 million. Part II of the schedule gives details of the services for which the Vote on Account of £1,139 million for 1983–84 is required to enable services to continue until the 1983–84 Main Estimates are debated and approved, and that, as your Lordships will know, is usually in July. It is based on a standard calculation of 45 per cent. of the total provision for the current year.

The major items in the Supplementary Estimates are for payments to Northern Ireland farmers under the European Council's Calf Premium Scheme, for restructuring the package of financial assistance to Lear Fan, for payments resulting from the decision to abolish the four-month delay on capital investment grants and for expenditure in connection with the proposed supply of natural gas from the Kinsale field. Additional provision is also sought for the roads, housing, education and health programmes. More detailed information on the Spring Supplementary Estimates can, of course, be found in the Estimates Volume itself, copies of which have been placed in the Printed Paper Office, along with the copies of the 1983–84 Statement of Sums required on Account.

I have no doubt that the Northern Ireland economy and unemployment will figure largely in the debate. I understand that it is also to be subjected to major television treatment by the "Panorama" team this evening, although of course I have not seen that film. I should like to set some of these issues in perspective by reminding your Lordships of the very basic issues in repect of the broad economic environment in which we have to consider the Northern Ireland economy. It is of course our firm conviction that the future economic prosperity and well-being of the United Kingdom as a whole and of Northern Ireland in particular depends on the creation of conditions which permit sustained rather than temporary economic growth, as only sustained economic growth can in turn provide stable employment. As I have said before often enough—and I make no apology for repeating it this afternoon—we must continue to control the erosion of the currency and of investment through inflation. This is a critical plank in the Government's overall economic strategy.

Equally critical to that plank is control of public spending, and particularly Government borrowing. Increased spending and borrowing results in increased interest rates and increased taxation, and both are deleterious to jobs and growth. Therefore, if we want to do more in any particular area or service in the United Kingdom, this inevitably means doing rather less in another sector. We must keep the books balanced, and we do this by setting targets and by ordering and debating our priorities within those targets.

The way we operate within Northern Ireland is exactly the same. When I spoke to your Lordships in December recommending approval of the Autumn Supplementary Estimates, I referred to the announcement by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland that public expenditure in Northern Ireland in 1983–84 would be of the order of £3,800 million. This represents an increase of some £30 million over the previous plans for the province at a time when for the first time in some years the total public expenditure plans for the United Kingdom as a whole are being maintained at a lower level than the planning total previously set. So this allocation to Northern Ireland represents the Government's recognition—indeed, the Government's continuing recognition—of the special needs and circumstances of the province at a time when world economic conditions are difficult and at a time when the national economic situation is being strictly directed and controlled in this respect of public spending.

It is our responsibility, then, to ensure that the funds which are allocated to Northern Ireland are used to the best possible advantage there. This means assessing competing needs and programmes, and in the final analysis it means drawing up a list of priorities. It is in this crucial task that I look to the Assembly, as elected representatives, to play an important part. Producing worthwhile schemes is not at all difficult. What is difficult is trying to accommodate them within a given, fixed total. Difficult choices have to be made. As we all know, they have to be made nationally and it follows that they have to be made locally as well.

Over the past two to three years we have given the highest priority to law and order services in order to secure the protection of life and property; to the promotion of the Northern Ireland economy by encouraging investment; and, within the social and environmental programmes, to housing. We believe that this balance remains the right one. As the world moves out of recession and the national economy improves, then Northern Ireland must be in a position to take best advantage of all opportunities. Our aim is to create and maintain the viable long-term jobs in the private sector which are essential to future prosperity. On the industrial front, the IDB and LEDU are making a vital contribution to stimulating job creation throughout the province. Indeed, the IDB is currently developing its strategy for the future.

Nevertheless, substantial programmes on other services are being maintained. Very substantial sums have been allocated to maintain agriculture, health, education and environmental programmes. Assembly committees have been set up for each of the Northern Ireland departments and they have already made an impressive start in getting to grips with the problems. The Assembly has, in fact, now got down to its task of scrutinising the processes of direct rule, and it is already clear that it has a useful part to play. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has referred a number of proposals for draft orders in council to the Assembly for its comments and the departmental committees have been examining a wide variety of subjects. May I give a quick summary at this point of the activities of these committees to date?

The Agriculture Committee has produced an urgent report on special aid for Northern Ireland agriculture and an interim report on inland fisheries, and it is currently examining the possible extension of less favoured areas. The Economic Development Committee is currently taking evidence and preparing a report on industrial development incentives and will be looking at the issue of consumer protection. The Environment Committee has produced reports on proposals for two draft orders in council dealing with access to the countryside and housing. It is currently examining rent structures and levels, and its future programmes may include an examination of planning law and integrated operations for the Belfast area. The Finance and Personnel Committee has produced reports on the Property (Discharge of Mortgage by Receipt) Draft Order and a discussion paper on the regional rate, and it is also currently examining the issue of additionality of European Community funds. The Education Committee has carried out a major examination of the rationalisation of schools and is preparing a report. The Health and Social Services Committee is examining the proposed reform of housing benefit, changes in the structure and management of health and personal social services and also the education and training of mentally handicapped children.

In addition to considering the reports of the departmental committees, the Assembly has held debates on a number of other topics. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has addressed the Assembly in plenary session on security policy. My honourable friend the Minister of State, Mr. Butler, addressed it about unemployment and the Michelin Company. And my honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Mr. Mitchell, addressed it on housing. I myself welcomed the opportunity to explain the Government's approach to public spending and some of the problems involved in resource allocation. The Assembly has also raised a great many matters of local interest in adjournment debates.

My right honourable friend the Secretary of State and my ministerial colleagues in the Northern Ireland Office are very glad to receive the Assembly's views and to take them into account in the formation of policy. This was demonstrated in our response to the Assembly's views on the proposals for a draft Rates Amendment Order and a draft General Consumer Council Order. In response to the Assembly's views on the draft Rates Amendment Order, my right honourable friend decided to increase the discount offered to ratepayers who pay their total rate bill promptly from 3½ to 4 per cent. My right honourable friend also decided that he should not proceed to lay the draft General Consumer Council Order before Parliament, given that the Assembly was not satisfied that the new arrangements proposed for consumer protection would be as effective as the present arrangements. He has asked my right honourable friend Mr. Butler to discuss this matter further with the Assembly's Economic Development Committee. This illustrates both the important role which the Assembly has to play and the Government's willingness to listen carefully to its views.

Finally, may I turn briefly to the major items featuring in the draft order. The provision sought in Class I, Vote 2, relates to the European Community Calf Premium Scheme under which Northern Ireland farmers are expected to benefit to the extent of some £2 million in the current financial year. On the industrial development front, a Supplementary Estimate on Class II, Vote 2, is sought mainly for technical reasons to enable financial restructuring relating both to the former Northern Ireland Development Agency and to Lear Fan.

Additional provision is also sought on Class II, Vote 3, mainly to meet the costs of the Government's decision to abolish the four-monthly delay in the payment of capital investment grants. New provisions totalling some £3 million are sought for youth community projects and employer-based schemes which form part of our special programme of employment measures to help young people. Supplementary provision is also required to meet a capital contribution of £5 million toward expenditure incurred by the Republic of Ireland on the construction of a pipeline to carry the gas to the Border, although this will only be required if there is a successful outcome to the negotiations this year.

Moving on now to environmental and social matters, I should like to draw your Lordships' attention to the supplementary provision of £3.4 million sought under Class IV, Vote 1 Roads Services to allow the completion of several new construction schemes, the commencement of a number of priority works and the making good of excessive damage to road surfaces caused by the severe weather during the winter of 1981–82. The Supplementary Estimate on Class V, Vote 1 seeks an increase of almost £9 million for housing services. The major requirements for the increased provision are the housing grant (which meets the difference between the Housing Executive's rental income and approved revenue expenditure) and support for the voluntary housing movement.

The major element of supplementation required on the education services is for the increased costs arising from the 1982 teachers' salaries award, while on the health services the additional provision is sought to meet the increased pay settlement to National Health Service workers, expenditure on maintenance and equipment, grants to voluntary bodies, and the increased costs of the family practitioner services.

I know that your Lordships have particular points which you may wish to raise and I am especially grateful to those noble Lords who gave me advance notice of the topics that they may be bringing up today. I will reply to as many of your Lordships' points as I can at the end of the day—and any which remain unanswered through lack of time will, of course, be replied to in correspondence later. I commend the draft order to the House.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 16th February be approved.—(The Earl of Gowrie.)

6.12 p.m.

Lord Underhill

My Lords, I am certain that the House will be grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Gowrie, for his comprehensive introduction to this appropriation order and also for the information given in the various documents. It was a very comprehensive introduction and I can choose only a few handy items on which to comment and to seek information.

The noble Earl referred to the Lear Fan project. When we discussed the last appropriation order in December, I raised this question and at that stage the noble Earl considered it rather inopportune to say too much. I noticed a statement in the Guardian on 14th February where doubt was thrown on plans to start production this year. The article stated, and I quote: A company forecast that the controversial new Lear executive aircraft would begin production in Belfast this summer is not supported by US aviation officials". The report continued: If the venture were to fail, and it has already come close to the edge of bankruptcy, it would cost British taxpayers a £50 million Government investment". I am certain noble Lords will appreciate that after the De Lorean failure and the devastating cutbacks by Michelin of their Northern Ireland factories, any failure to start the Lear company's production will have an appalling effect in Northern Ireland. Perhaps the noble Earl can tell the House what the position is and how much public money has already been expended?

Under Class III, there is reference to provision for expenditure to facilitate the restructuring of the gas industry. The spring supplementary estimate booklet for 1982–83 shows an item of £5 million in connection with the introduction of the supply of natural gas. The estimate for 1983–84 for restructuring of the gas industry is a sum of £16 million in total with £10 million required on account. Can the noble Earl say on what the £5 million for 1982–83 was expended? In the last debate, on the previous appropriation order, I raised the question of a possible natural gas line for Kinsale to which the noble Earl made a brief reference this evening. At that stage, the noble Earl said that a final decision had not been taken and that it depended on costs and viability. May we know what the current position is and what the possible financial implications are?

I note from a Written Answer to a Question from Mr. Adam Butler in another place on 14th February that, although the cost of a pipeline from Dublin to Belfast will be around £21 million, the cost of transmission lines and pipelines to customers and for the conversion of appliances will bring the total cost to around £147 million. Has a clear decision been taken? What will be the effect of these costs on the gas industry and on the cost of gas? If this opportunity for natural gas is taken up, will it have a very great effect on the future of the gas industry in Northern Ireland?

Linked to this, I note that in Class II, Vote 3, of the spring supplementary estimate there is provision for £166,000 for a consultancy exercise on the possible exploitation of lignite deposits. Is any information about this available? I noticed that in the booklet.A Strategy for the Future, issued by the Northern Ireland Electricity Service, there is a paragraph on this matter, which emphasises that these lignite deposits are the only significant proven fuel reserves in Northern Ireland. I quote from the booklet: Therefore, the service is naturally keen to thoroughly assess and utilise this deposit. In fact, a press notice of 9th February said that this assessment should be expedited". With 90 per cent. of the generating plant in Northern Ireland being oil-fired, the development of lignite together with the steady conversion of some plants to coal would not only conserve British oil but would also help Britain's coal industry.

Under Class VI, Vote 2, there is provision by the DLE for the enterprise zones in Belfast—which started, I believe, in October 1981—and Londonderry. Can the noble Earl say what will be the net cost, taking into account all the financial assistance to concerns coming into these two zones? How many new jobs are being created? There is an indication that in some enterprise zones in Great Britain some firms are not creating new jobs at all; all that has happened is that new firms have moved in from other areas to get the financial benefits which are available in enterprise zones. Will this aspect be watched, and how will it be avoided? Is there any indication of how many new jobs have been created by the enterprise zone already in Belfast?

The noble Earl has given his views and the Government's views on the progress in the Assembly and has given encouraging information about the development of the departmental committees. It is gratifying to know that the Government are taking into account some of the observations of the Assembly committees on some of the orders referred to it. May I ask whether the Assembly will be considering orders which will be subject to affirmative resolutions of each House here? If that will be so, when these affirmative resolutions are brought forward will Parliament be informed of any changes that have been made as a result of consideration by the Assembly?

Unemployment in Northern Ireland has now risen to around 21 per cent. It has been pointed out that nearly 27 per cent. of males are without work. I should like to draw your Lordships' attention to a programme, "The Trade Union Alternative", which has been prepared by the Northern Ireland Committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. This points out that of the registered unemployed, nearly 20,000 are under the age of 19. This matter may have some relevance to the Unstarred Question which your Lordships will be debating later this evening. Nearly half of the number of unemployed have been without work for a year. The trade union document points out, and I quote: Our industrial decline is dramatically illustrated by the fact that there are now 30,000 more people on the dole than at work in manufacturing industry". Then there is a somewhat frightening sentence from these men and women in the trade union movement of Northern Ireland, who know only too well the situation there: It may well be that the industrial base of Northern Ireland has moved to a point beyond which recovery is impossible. In this connection, although good progress has been made with the development of new housing by the Housing Executive, over 23,000, or 48 per cent., of the construction industry workforce are out of work. This is double the figure that it was in May 1979. The document points out that the housing programme required to deal with the level of unfitness alone has not yet materialised.

Time will not permit me to give details of this alternative programme put forward by the Northern Ireland trade union movement, but a paragraph in its introduction states: The core of this programme is an industrial strategy. With the devastation of the manufacturing sector of the economy referred to earlier, there is clearly a need to restructure the entire industrial base". The programme goes on to urge: The Government must tackle both unemployment and poverty by ensuring major public investment in industrial development". Although the programme to which I have referred is one for Northern Ireland prepared by the Northern Ireland Committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, the proposals are regarded by that committee as being the application of the British TUC's alternative strategy adapted to meet the problems of Northern Ireland. I ask the noble Earl: how far is the programme being considered by the Government? I understand that, at a meeting of the Finance and Personnel Committee of the Assembly on 10th March, evidence was to be given by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, by the CBI, by the Northern Ireland Economic Council and also the Commission of the European Communities. As there are amounts included in the appropriation for industrial support and regeneration under Class II, it would be very helpful if the noble Earl could comment on the trade union programme and on this very important meeting of the Finance and Personnel Committee of the Assembly, because that may give an indication as to how far the Assembly will be able to deal with economic matters, which may have a considerable bearing on the progress of events in Northern Ireland.

6.23 p.m.

Lord Hampton

My Lords, I, too, should like to thank the noble Earl for his introduction of this order. As we are having a more general debate later on, I will confine myself to asking the Minister four questions of which I have given him notice. First, can he give any more information about Class II, No. 3? He did say something about LEDU earlier on. Can he give more detail of how much is going on account to Harland and Wolff, Shorts and Lear Fan respectively? The noble Lord, Lord Underhill, also raised this point. Secondly, with regard to Class II, No. 4, can the noble Earl give some details of the success or otherwise of promoting the tourist industry? The amount allocated to this does not seem very large. Does he think the troubles have a seriously adverse effect? Thirdly, on Class IV, No. 2, is the noble Earl satisfied that enough is being spent on recreation, considering the great need in a society with such high unemployment?

The total Vote mentioned is only just over £8 million, and this includes planning, historic monuments and other environmental services, including enterprise zones, which again the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, touched on. Fourthly, on Class XI, £1,260,000 is allocated on account for the Northern Ireland Assembly. What has been the expenditure to date, because this does not seem to be listed?

Viscount Brookeborough

My Lords, I should like to start be welcoming this order. I have given my noble friend notice of two questions which I want to raise. I should like to start by welcoming the establishment now of the IDB, the Industrial Development Board. When I heard the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, talking about De Lorean, I just hoped that we shall not have what could be called the De Lorean factor inhibiting the IDB from taking risks again. The situation in Northern Ireland, with its very high, unacceptably high, unemployment, means that there is no possibility of getting large-scale investment without taking risks and without the Government taking risks. When many years ago we had another failure in Northern Ireland—it was called seenozip—the total amount was only £100,000 or something like that, but I can tell your Lordships from my experience in the Ministry of Commerce that there was a seenozip complex, and for some time those in charge of Government grants were over-cautious in what they were doing. I should like to feel that the hands of the IDB are not being tied by the failure of the past.

I want to raise the question of inward investment into Northern Ireland. We have practically no inward investment coming on at the moment, in contrast to our neighbours south of the Border; their incentives and their inward investment appear to be very successful. I have heard my noble friend's colleagues saying that the great inhibiting factor is the violent image of Northern Ireland. That may be so, that may be the only reason, but Borde Faillte, the Southern Irish Tourist Board, in complaining about its failure to attract tourists, has said that the image of violence envelops the whole of Ireland. If that is so, and if their incentives are bringing in investment, where lies the difference? I believe that there must be some reason for one to succeed and the other to fail.

I have spoken about this and tried to do something for many years. Our incentives in Northern Ireland must really be seen in the context of incentives in other development areas in the United Kingdom. There is absolutely no doubt that the Northern Ireland package is the best package in the whole of the United Kingdom. It is the best compared to the North-East of England or Wales, or somewhere like that. Any industrialist who takes time can see that it is a very good package. The problem is that, in order to catch the industrialist's eye, the goodies have to be in the first five lines of the brochure. The Dublin incentives include a tax incentive; they have had freedom from income tax for exports for many years. There is absolutely no doubt that that has produced an enormous amount of inward investment. But I repeat that, if any industrialist were to cost the whole thing out over five or 10 years, he would find a lot of the advantage of that was rather illusory. However they do not do that. It is the sugar coating on the pill that we really require; we really want a sexy photograph at the beginning of the brochure to attract their attention.

I would ask the Government whether they cannot persuade the Treasury to let us experiment. After all, Northern Ireland is separately costed; it can be totally limited. Let us be allowed to experiment with totally new forms of incentive which are not common to the rest of the United Kingdom, because the problems of our unemployment are so absolutely catastrophic.

While sitting here today I suddenly thought of something of which I have not given the noble Earl notice. I do think that the Government's problems are made so very great because of currency fluctuations. The noble Earl mentioned the importance of maintaining the value of the currency. We used to have in Northern Ireland the greatest concentration of artificial fibres in Europe. We had two extremely efficient factories, one British Enkalon and one Courtaulds. They were exceptionally efficient. The Courtaulds factory was near Derry. They have both been closed. I believe that, had they not been closed, they would, with the reduction in the valuation of the pound, in fact now be the largest profit-making artificial fibre plants in Europe. It must be extremely difficult to make decisions on whether or not to support a factory when, in the course of less than a year, our currency can drop like that and an uneconomic factory become economic.

I turn now to the second subject about which I warned the noble Earl. This concerns the amalgamation of the new university and the Ulster Polytechnic. I was in the Government when the polytechnic was first formed and when the whole Act went through our Parliament. The reason that we formed it was that we felt there was a great need for practical-orientated higher education with a commercial tilt to it. Any question of languages had to be related to what I call trade and industry. In 1965 the Lockwood Report proposed that. I see a great danger, with the amalgamation of the polytechnic with the university, of what could be called an academic drift. I remember what happened, or what almost happened, to our secondary moderns. There was always a try on the part of the secondary moderns to become grammar schools and a failure to realise that the education provided in the secondary moderns was a very important part of our educational process.

I have made inquiries about what has been happening in the polytechnic and there is such a tendency already. I should like to know from the Government, considering the freedom that they give to the various universities to allocate their money, how they will make sure that that allocation maintains the commercially orientated courses at the polytechnic. I am very much afraid that we shall end up by having just one university. That will be to the detriment of Queen's University, which is the oldest established university.

Still on the subject of education, I now turn to the actual technical colleges. I start off by congratulating the Government on getting the youth programme—YTP—off the ground. We are miles ahead of the rest of the United Kingdom and I feel that that should be trumpeted from the hills. The Government deserve great credit for getting on with the job. Our technical colleges throughout the province are excellent and they stand absolutely at the top of their ladder. I am worried that they will be swamped by YTPs.

Perhaps I should explain that. I do not know how many people know this, but when a young person is on a YTP programme he must, one day a week, go to a technical college. He can, if he wishes to accept it, go to the technical college the whole time. There is a great danger that discipline will break down, because whatever one may say—and there are a lot of extremely good YTPs—on the whole they are comprised of people who have failed to get a job for some reason, and many of them put the discipline of those colleges at risk. I already know of one student who has refused to go to a technical college in Bangor because she feels that the discipline is breaking down and that she will not be able to achieve her aim of being a nurse. So I ask the noble Lord whether he can tell me how the Government will maintain the money for the polytechnic for technical commercial courses and how they will control the question of YTPs swamping technical colleges. I welcome this order.

6.33 p.m.

Baroness Ewart-Biggs

My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for presenting the appropriation order in his usual and characteristically very clear way. I also thank him for giving us news of the work of the Assembly about which, on account of the rather negative reporting that often happens in the Press here, we have not heard enough. I was extremely glad and grateful to hear about it. I should like to make one or two points about housing and ask the Minister two questions of which I fear I have not given him notice, but knowing the very capacious content of the Minister's mind I am quite sure he carries most answers with him.

I cannot claim to be a constant visitor to the Province but I do go to Belfast often enough to be constantly struck by the level of housing for people there. It is a heartbreaking level. Therefore, when we hear the Government say that they are putting the housing programme for Northern Ireland at the top of their list of priorities and are aiming to spend £400 million on housing we can feel nothing but relief. However, in regard to housing it must be remembered that in Northern Ireland there is a different level from that which exists here. It must also be remembered that right from the point of departure the level of housing in Northern Ireland has been infinitely inferior to that on the mainland. So although I know that the Northern Ireland Housing Executive is an enormously respected body and that there is much admiration for many of the housing developments, nevertheless it is generally accepted that simply to keep pace with the unfitness level of houses in Northern Ireland the Government would need to make another 500 starts this year, and so far as I can see that is extremely unlikely to happen.

When one reflects on another aspect of housing—namely, that, as my noble friend Lord Underhill said, half the total construction workforce in Northern Ireland is out of work—then one begins to despair. There seems to be an unbelievable paradox that, on the one hand, we have the worst housing in the European Community, recognised by the Brussels Commission, and, on the other hand, we have half the labour force sitting around idle and costing the Exchequer a huge amount of money in unemployment benefit.

Therefore, may I ask the Minister this first question. Can he give us any news about the European funds—I think it was £6 million—which the Community has set aside for Belfast housing? I know that there has been a problem, in that one of the member states had blocked this as it did not wish to see a precedent established; but perhaps in view of the really critical state of housing in Northern Ireland, the Minister would be good enough to tell us whether this problem has been resolved and whether the blockage has been removed.

Secondly, in relation to housing, I raise the question of the homeless in Northern Ireland. As noble Lords may well know, there is an anomaly in Northern Ireland regarding who is responsible for the homeless. This surely points to the urgent need for the introduction of statutory rights for the homeless in Northern Ireland. Indeed, bearing in mind the desperate housing shortage in the Province one can think of no place which is in greater need of such statutory rights. As I understand it, at the moment the official position appears to be that the social service authorities provide temporary accommodation for the homeless while the Housing Executive in due course provides permanent accommodation.

The Government have promised to draw up a joint code of practice to clarify the responsibilities of the two agencies. I understand that the Housing Executive is also considering some minor changes to its house allocation scheme to give greater discretion to local housing managers to grant absolute priority to the people most currenty covered. But although this looks all right on the surface, it is all hotly contested by the voluntary agencies who are actually dealing with the homeless. They argue that the absence of any statutory duty to deal with particular cases means that the social services and the housing executive can mess around individual applicants by prevaricating and passing the buck. Thus, the social services do their best to find hostel accommodation for people who have nowhere to live, but when dealing with families clearly they have to divide them up and put them in different hostels. In many cases the children go to institutional care. This seems a highly unsatisfactory situation, the more so in a troubled area such as Ulster, where the cohension of the family unit is obviously of enormous importance. Moreover, as there is no statutory obligation on the housing executive to find these families public accommodation, the family risks remaining split up for very lengthy periods.

I gather that the organisation of Shelter in Northern Ireland last month brought out a report which has tried, first, to identify and quantify the problem of the homeless and, secondly, to set out the steps to be taken to alleviate it. The major points which emerge from this report are as follows: first, that the problem of homelessness appears to have been worsening over the last 12 months; secondly, that the problems spring directly from the lack of Government response in the way of increasing funding or legislative initiatives—either increasing one or the other; thirdly, that there is a heavy reliance upon voluntary bodies to play an important housing function and that they do that with limited resources, limited statutory support and inadequate co-ordination. Finally, although there is a critical need for support services for the homeless, the need to cater for housing-related problems has never been satisfied in either legal or financial terms.

Would the Minister give an assurance that the recommendations put forward very clearly in this report by Shelter will be seriously considered by himself and by his right honourable friend the Secretary of State? On the other hand, will he say whether the Assembly is empowered to make some decision in this regard? Surely it must be agreed that, while the lack of houses is one sad truth, the fact that in some cases there is not even a satisfactory statutory procedure to distribute that housing makes it even worse. I would be very, very grateful for some kind of assurance from the Minister on that point.

6.42 p.m.

Lord Dunleath

My Lords, I, too, would like to thank the noble Earl for having kindly given us notice of this debate and having solicited points which we might want to raise. I gave him notice of a number of points but he will be relieved to know that I shall not by any means touch on all of them.

The first point concerns the control of dogs under Class I(1). In fact in Saturday's post I received a memorandum on this subject which I was glad to see but which I have not yet had an opportunity fully to assimilate. The only comment that I would make about that is that, when many years ago we started talking about the necessity to improve the control of dogs, particularly to obviate the very serious incidence of sheep worrying, particularly in the spring, it was thought that an increase of the dog licence to £5 would be enough to instil into aspiring dog owners a sense of responsibility; but inflation since then has been such that I would hazzard the suggestion that perhaps £5 is no longer sufficient and that by the time the legislation reaches the statute book perhaps something more like £10 would be appropriate to ensure that people do not take on the responsibility of acquiring a dog without realising how great a responsibility that is and the degree of control and maintenance that is required.

Another matter on the subject of agriculture under Class I is that of poultry. I have received complaints about chickens in transit being overcrowded in lorries. One particular complaint was investigated and those responsible for transporting the poultry reported that afterwards only eight in the lorry-load were dead. I would respectfully submit that eight is eight too many. Having made inquiries, I understand that there is no statutory maximum of density when transporting fowl by road; rather there are spot checks done by a Ministry of Agriculture veterinary surgeon. I would respectfully suggest that there should be a statutory limit so as to ensure that this particular cruelty is avoided.

Again under Class I, less favoured areas is a subject that has been under scrutiny by the Agriculture Committee of the Northern Ireland Assembly, of which I am a member. We have so far spent 14½ hours on this subject. From the evidence which we have received it has become apparent that a very much broader brush was used in defining less favoured areas in other parts not only of the United Kingdom but of Europe as well, and the Republic of Ireland, than was the case in Northern Ireland, where the boundaries seem to be somewhat arbitrary. Odd islands of comparatively good land—I say comparatively with deliberation—have been excluded.

The noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, who is not in his place at the moment, will know one of the areas to which I refer, because it is in the Clogher Valley adjacent to where he lives. That has been excluded from the less favoured areas, thus being denied the advantages to be derived therefrom. There is no doubt that that is an area of land which is basically far inferior to areas in Scotland, for instance, which have been designated as being less favoured. In Scotland I understand that some 92 per cent. of the total agricultural land is designated as less favoured. I know some of it quite well just to the east of Stranraer. It is most certainly superior to some of the land which has been excluded in Northern Ireland.

Another factor which has come to our notice is that, because a certain farmer may have been assiduous in improving his farm—draining it and working it well—although his land is no better but just looks better, he has been excluded as well. I hope that with the present application which I understand is under consideration at the moment for the whole of the United Kingdom for a review of the less favoured areas, the anomalies which have up to now existed in Northern Ireland will be made good.

Turning now to Class III(1), I am wondering what is happening about the gas pipeline link-up. My view was that the most economic and obvious way to link up the Northern Ireland gas grid would have been to put an undersea pipeline to Scotland, thus making a supply of North Sea natural gas available, but Her Majesty's Government have consistently rejected that proposal. However, I understand that the proposal to link up the Northern Ireland grid with the Kinsale supply is still under review. The consideration of that seems to be dragging out rather a long time. I would be interested to know what is happening. While the future of the gas industry remains in doubt the gas undertakings are finding it more and more difficult to retain their customers. Sales of gas appliances have plummeted to a very dramatic extent.

Similarly under Class III, I am wondering what is happening about the electricity inter-connector between Northern Ireland and the Republic which your Lordships may remember was blown up a number of years ago. Nothing has been done about it since. I think that it is a sad reflection on the security situation if we cannot have an electricity inter-connector replaced and properly guarded so that surplus capacity for generation of power in the north can be sold to the south, thus making the electricity service in the north more viable.

Under Class IV, a rather startling document was reported in the press last week to the effect that maximum fares on the Strangford Ferry were to be trebled. It has since become apparent that these are maximum fares which may—not necessarily will—be brought into effect over the next five years. I sincerely hope that the maximum will not be reached within five years because there are many of us who feel that this ferry ought to be regarded as an extension of the road system. People do not have to pay a toll when crossing a river bridge, and in the same way the ferry should not be regarded as something which has to be financed by passengers and vehicle drivers paying an economic fare to travel on it.

I come to Class V, dealing with housing. I would merely mention that the housing associations seem to have started to do an extremely good job, but, despite the extra injection of cash which was announced earlier this year, I would draw the noble Earl's attention to the fact that even projects which are in the pipeline now are likely to have to wait for some five years before a start can be made on building. I think that that is a great pity because the noble Baroness, Lady Ewart-Biggs, referred to the deplorable housing situation in Northern Ireland and the necessity for many more houses to be built. The housing associations are all ready to do this if only the finance is available. I know of a site adjacent to my home which could be developed right away, but the finance is not there to enable it to proceed as a viable project.

The final class to which I would refer is Class XI, and in No. 1 we read that £1,260,000 is to be voted for the expenditure of the Northern Ireland Assembly. I would pose the question as to whether or not this is money well spent, because, if the Assembly is to continue to work—and I use the word "continue" deliberately—it will be money very well spent indeed. But if the Assembly does not work, it will not be money well spent; it will be money squandered.

Therefore, the question is: do Her Majesty's Government want the Assembly to work or not? It would appear that the Secretary of State does want it to work. I quote from a statement issued by his office on 10th March last, in which the Secretary of State said: I welcome the wide range of topics which the Assembly is addressing, and my Ministerial colleagues and I will continue to do all we can to assist the Assembly, and to take full account of its recommendations. Those were words which I welcomed, which I was glad to read. But I wonder whether that view is shared by all the Minister's colleagues in the Northern Ireland Office. I pose this question because in the Assembly I was responsible for moving one of the first resolutions which was passed by that Assembly without a Division. I am aware that a number of resolutions passed by the Assembly were not acceptable to Her Majesty's Government because they involved additional expenditure of public funds for which provision had not been made. Indeed, perhaps they were verging on a sensitive area from a political point of view.

However, I moved a resolution that park coursing of live hares—in other words, coursing of live hares in an enclosed space—should no longer be permitted in Northern Ireland, and the Assembly agreed to that. That was on 27th January last. On 24th February I wrote to the Secretary of State asking him what the next step would be, as it was four weeks since the Assembly had passed that particular motion and I had not yet received a reply. I do not complain about that because I realise that Ministerial replies take a while to process. But other members of the public who are interested in this particular issue wrote to the Secretary of State and received what seems to have been an identical letter from a member of the permanent staff of the Department of Health and Social Services, writing on behalf of the Minister responsible for that department. The letter says that the Minister: is very much aware of the sensitivities of this subject in Northern Ireland and in the rest of the United Kingdom. However, the Government's view has been that questions of this sort are more suitable to be raised through Private Members' channels than through Government legislation since in the former way MPs are free to vote as a matter of conscience. In this connection you may be interested to know that the law in Northern Ireland on this subject is essentially the same as that applying in England and Wales. I am very sorry to say that not only do I consider that reply to be disgraceful, but I consider it to be an insult to the intelligence. Perhaps it was designed to mollify members of the public who are not familiar with parliamentary procedure, but anyone who is remotely familiar with parliamentary procedure knows that the chances of a Private Member's Bill getting through or even getting selected for debate are very slim indeed. Anyway, why should it be subordinated to a Private Member's Bill?

For instance, in the case of compulsory wearing of seat belts, I understand that a majority of both Houses of Parliament eventually, after many years' debate, voted in favour of the compulsory wearing of seat belts in cars. Would it have been in order for Her Majesty's Government to have said, "All right, Parliament thinks that this ought to be the case, but it is rather a sensitive issue so we will just leave it and see whether a Private Member happens to raise it in a Private Member's Bill" I hardly think so.

Similarly, if Her Majesty's Government are to accord the Northern Ireland Assembly the status which the Secretary of State seems to think it deserves, I respectfully suggest that when a resolution is passed without division, action should be taken rather than having it put on the long finger in this respect. Further more, the reply from the Department of Health and Social Services says that: the law in Northern Ireland on this subject is essentially the same as that applying in England and Wales. Quite frankly, that is not true; it is different. Park coursing—that is, coursing of live hares in an enclosed space—is not permitted in England. The motion that I raised in the Assembly was merely to bring the law in Northern Ireland into line with what it is and has been since the 1920s in England.

Therefore, the question is: do Her Majesty's Government want the Northern Ireland Assembly to work or not? If they do, they had better back it up. The Alliance Party and, to give credit where credit is due, the Democratic Unionist Party as well have done all they can to try to make this Assembly work. My party has backed Her Majesty's Government and the Secretary of State to the hilt. We cannot go on doing that unless we receive some reciprocal backing as well.

Therefore, I respectfully suggest that the ball is now in the court of Her Majesty's Government, and I sincerely hope that the civil servant who was responsible for the letter from which I have quoted will be admonished and told not to write letters like that again.

6.59 p.m.

Lord Blease

My Lords, I rise to support the order before us this evening. I should like to say that I warmly welcome the Minister's statement concerning the role and functions of the Northern Ireland Assembly. I am also very pleased to have heard the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Dunleath—spelling out the problems of the Assembly in this Chamber. I think it is important that the Minister has taken the initiative and that it is placed on the record of this House that, so far as the Government are concerned, there is a very perceptive understanding of the constructive way in which the committees of the Assembly have undertaken their deliberations and their functions. There is a general awareness outside among the general public in Northern Ireland that the Assembly is at these early stages fulfilling a useful, participatory role, and exercising great responsibility and prudence in the decisions concerning the distribution of resources in Northern Ireland.

I also read with great interest the Official Reportof the Minister's own appearance, if that is how one terms it, before the Assembly on 16th February. The debate was wide-ranging, covering agriculture, shipbuilding, housing, health services, education, construction, youth training programmes, EEC funds and energy, among other matters. I have the impression from the tone of the official debate that the Minister found it a useful experience.

As well as the Northern Ireland Assembly, I consider that there are at least three other developments which are deserving of favourable comment at this time. The noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, has already mentioned the emergence of the Northern Ireland Industrial Development Board. I am sure that I share with many, not only in this House but in the general public in Northern Ireland, in offering warmest congratulations and delight at the appointment of Mr. John Parker as chairman and chief executive of Harland and Wolff and the Belfast Shipbuilders, and also to Sir Philip Foreman, the current managing director, on his appointment to the position of chairman of Short Brothers and Harland, the Belfast aircraft and engineering enterprise. Both these men have made valuable contributions to their respective industries and have honourable records of dedication and leadership within the context of industry in Northern Ireland. It is deserving that they should be mentioned in this House because they represent the two largest employers in the engineering industry in the Province.

Within the last few days we have had the announcement of the Industrial Development Board direction. This direction gives the guidelines to the vital task of the IDB in the promotion of industrial development. There are a few general questions I wish to put to the Minister at this stage in the debate. The matters will be obvious, and I am not going into a lot of detail. Can the Minister indicate whether the annual report and accounts of the Industrial Development Board will be laid before Parliament? I understand from a statement in another place on 10th March that the Industrial Development Board have produced a strategy document. Would the Minister indicate that this document is available, particularly to Members of the two Houses of Parliament here?

It is understood that the Secretary of State, Mr. Prior, is undertaking a review of industrial incentives. As it is felt in some quarters that the delay in publishing this review could hinder some investment proposals, may I ask when we are likely to have a statement about the relevant incentive issues? I am not putting my points under particular class headings, because they come under various headings.

The British Textile Confederation has proposed a programme of action to rebuild confidence and fulfil the potential of the industry. As this programme has important implications for the development of textiles and clothing in Northern Ireland, can the Minister give an assurance that the Industrial Development Board will undertake to give adequate support to the relevant Northern Ireland initiatives? I should also like to ask the Minister whether he is satisfied that the programme of afforestation in Northern Ireland is being maintained.

May I ask the Minister whether he has read the statement made on 1st March, by Mr. Gordon Burnison, the director of the Federation of Building and Civil Engineering Contractors? Mr. Burnison declared that 45 per cent. of building and 80 per cent. of civil engineering firms are operating at less than half capacity, and that some 25,000 construction workers are unemployed. I would be pleased if the Minister would urge his ministerial colleagues and the departments to do all they possibly can to stimulate an increase in the development projects and capital spending relevant to the construction industry.

Finally, I know that the Minister has a very high regard for the rich, diverse, and beautiful natural environment of Northern Ireland. With a view to the maintenance and improvement of this environment and the development of Northern Ireland's natural resources, may I ask him whether he would kindly draw to the attention of the information divisions of Northern Ireland departments and the Industrial Development Board the series of studies undertaken and published jointly by Queen's University, Belfast, and the New University of Ulster? This book which has over 500 references is obtainable at a nominal price of about £6. I know that this sounds like a commercial plug, but I understand that this publication is not done on any sort of commercial basis, and in my opinion it warrants inclusion in any information package sent to potential capital investors in Northern Ireland. I know that the Minister's interest in this matter would be much appreciated. With those general remarks, I welcome the order.

7.6 p.m.

The Earl of Gowrie

My Lords, I am grateful to the House for the general reception of the appropriation order. I tried in my opening remarks to place these large figures within the context of the Government's overall strategy, and I shall not repeat myself here except to say that at a time when public spending has been under considerable restraint and has been successfully contained for the first time in many years to the levels planned, Northern Ireland has had a modest increase, but nevertheless a real increase in real terms. That, I think, is an earnest of the Minister's commitments to the special needs and difficulties of the Province.

The noble Lord, Lord Underhill, asks me about some adverse media comment about Lear Fan. I am afraid that I cannot comment on the newspaper report to which the noble Lord refers. In fact, I read the newspapers carefully but this particular item is news to me, and I shall look it out. I can say that the company has already achieved two of the three critical milestones on its way—the prototype construction and the first flight, to which of course should be added the flights of the second prototype—and the next target of the company is type certification of airworthiness by the United States Federal Aviation Administration. I certainly know that we all wish the company well in seeking that certification. We know that it is difficult and that there may be need for additional research and development work.

On the matter of the Kinsale natural gas project, as I said in my opening remarks the estimate provides for an up-front payment, to use the jargon, of £5 million to the authorities in the Irish Republic on the signing of the heads of agreement. The estimates I have laid before your Lordships allow for that. Whether this money is spent is dependent on the agreement of acceptable terms of supply with the Government of the Republic. A broad understanding was reached in May of 1982, but I have to advise your Lordships that important issues remain to be resolved, and I shall of course keep the House informed as these develop.

I certainly agree with the noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, that it is thoroughly to be desired that uncertainty should be ended in the gas industry. It would be expected that consumers in Northern Ireland could first receive natural gas approximately two years after a decision to proceed with the project, and we all hope that such a project should be viable. Still on energy matters, the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, referred to lignite resources and wanted to know the latest news of the utilisation of those resources. Again, I cannot go far at present because a detailed assessment of the reserves is in progress. On present information it is estimated that there are recoverable reserves of 100 million tonnes in the landwood area near Loch Neagh, and the Government are currently looking into uses for these resources, and possible uses would include electricity generation, which, in view of the high costs of electricity generation in the Province, would be very welcome.

The noble Lord, Lord Underhill, asked about developments in relation to the Belfast enterprise zones and for some hard information about that. I can tell him that 193 jobs in 30 firms have been created in those zones since designation, in October 1981; 69 of those are genuine new jobs spread over 22 new small businesses, and the eight firms which have relocated have not done so solely to obtain the benefits but because they had wanted to expand their businesses or because existing property has been subject to compulsory acquisition. It is also encouraging to note that, of 175 further jobs to be created in the near future, 140 will be in two companies which are setting up in Northern Ireland for the first time. Private investment in the zones to date amounts to an estimated £8 million, and I shall note the points of advice the noble Lord gave and refer them to my honourable friend the Minister responsible.

Turning to matters connected with the Assembly—and I was grateful for the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Blease—the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, kindly gave me notice that he intended to ask whether the Assembly considered orders to be subject to affirmative resolutions of Parliament and, if so, whether both Houses would be informed when they were considered here. My right honourable friend refers proposals for draft orders in council on transfer of matters to the Assembly, with the exception of the appropriation and other routine financial orders, pure consolidation orders and orders to be made by the urgent procedure. This is done on publication of the proposal for public consultation. Simultaneously, copies are placed in the Vote Office of another place and in the Printed Paper Office. The Assembly's report on a proposal is laid before Parliament pursuant to Section 3(4) of the Northern Ireland Act 1982 and therefore Parliament, including of course your Lordships' House, will be able to take the Assembly's views into account when the draft order is laid.

I can tell the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, that I have indeed seen the document of the trade union alternative strategy and I shall continue to study it carefully. I can only say at this late stage in the debate that there are substantive general economic strategy differences between the Government and the trade unions who, we feel, in spite of many useful suggestions and much good work, ignore the difficulties of containing public spending and containing inflation. I would remind them, as I have reminded the House, that public spending, by which they set considerable store in the document, is higher in real terms in Northern Ireland than in the rest of the United Kingdom, and higher even after taking into account the needs for benefit and the law and order budget. It is really for that reason that we are anxious to get some political movement into Northern Ireland, so that investors inside and outside the Kingdom acknowledge that Northern Ireland is taking its own special needs and difficulties into account and is trying to wrestle with the problem of creating a stable environment there which can attract investment.

Still on the issue of the Assembly, I did, as the noble Lord, Lord Blease, was kind enough to remind us, have the pleasure of addressing the Assembly on 16th February. I outlined the general strategy and order of priorities which underlay the plans contained in the White Paper and I listened with great interest to the views expressed there. What I had to say to the Assembly was that it was not enough, respectfully, for them to call for additional expenditure; they must get down to the hard job, through the committees, of making the allocations within overall planned resources, and that I am confident they will attempt to do.

The noble Lord, Lord Hampton, asked about progress by the LEDU. Since its inception in 1971 to 31st January 1983, LEDU has promoted 14,377 jobs, including 1,613 in the last financial year. I regard that as a significant achievement and it can be attributed to the body's close involvement with, and recognition of, the needs of small industry in the Province. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State announced in Parliament on 9th March that the Government would be making available public funding of £7.4 million to Shorts in the year to 31st March 1984. Discussions are continuing with Harland and Wolff as to their funding requirements for the next financial year, and I too welcome, with the noble Lord, Lord Blease, the appointment of Mr. Parker.

With regard to Shorts, as with other aerospace companies, the current recession in the industry has had a great impact on Shorts, and the company's aerostructure division in particular has suffered a loss of orders. But the company will continue to pursue contracts on any new aircraft developments, and their new commuter airline went into service last November, which is certainly welcomed. Your Lordships may like to know that missiles made by the company were used in the Falklands campaign, and Shorts are hopeful of obtaining export orders now that their products have been so well proven in combat conditions.

Regarding Harland and Wolff, it would be a very bland Minister who felt anything approaching optimism in relation to the state of the world-wide shipping market. There is very fierce competition, particularly from the Far East, for the very few orders which are available, but I know the new chairman and chief executive will be spearheading an energetic drive to secure some of those orders.

The noble Lord, Lord Hampton, asked about tourism, and perhaps I may give a blanket answer also to the noble Lord, Lord Blease, whose concern for the lovely environment of Northern Ireland I wholeheartedly share. The tourist industry has suffered from the poor image of the Province. The people we attract there from all over the world, either as tourists or in order to see the investment possibilities, are constantly amazed at the way peace has broken out in almost all corners of the Province. But it is difficult, while there is so much intransigent political debate, for that amazement to be widely shared, which of course is what we should very much like to see.

I will draw together the points about how we might approach the North American/Canadian market, where there are an estimated 20 million people with Northern Ireland roots, as part of a major drive for tourism in the Province. Of my right honourable friend and my colleagues and myself, one of us is nearly always either just completing or about to undertake a trip to North America in relation to this and other matters, and we shall keep the needs very firmly in mind. That point goes well with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Blease, when he suggested that we must start adapting to the needs of greater leisure in our society, and I certainly take his argument on that on board.

Both the noble Lords, Lord Hampton and Lord Dunleath, asked about the costs of the Northern Ireland Assembly; £1,260,000 is allocated on account for the Assembly, and expenditure incurred to date in the current financial year on the Vote is £1.3 million. The Vote on account is based on 45 per cent. of the expected full year costs for next year, in the absence, of course, of comparative costs for the current year.

My noble friend Lord Brookeborough asked me about incentives to industry, and he made a point which I think is often made; namely, that in this regard we may perform adversely compared to the Republic. This, too, is a complex issue, and my noble friend will be aware that the criticism may have lost a little validity in recent years; not, I fear, for very good reasons, but rather due to the sad fact that at the moment there is a certain amount of investment famine all over the Western world, and in this respect the Republic is not in fact doing so well as it was. Of course I take no satisfaction in noting that.

Nevertheless the fact of the matter is that, in terms not merely of security issues but of political deadlock and intransigence as well, the poor image of the Province is a disincentive to investment. I urge all those political representatives in the Province, on both sides of the community divide, when they make their utterances to weigh them very carefully with the need to attract overseas industry to the Province. In saying "overseas industry", I include investment from this part of the Kingdom; and I have often made play of the fact that there is greater investment from Great Britain in the Republic than there is in the Province.

I do not think that there is too much wrong with our package of investments, but I take my noble friend's point that the shop window is not—as he put it—sexy enough. I do not know whether Northern Ireland would welcome a very sexy shop window, but I shall bring to the attention of the bodies concerned my noble friend's view that there is a need for that.

On my noble friend's point about the merger of the new Ulster University and the Ulster Polytechnic, I would say that we have repeatedly made it clear that the new institution is to have a practical and vocational emphasis, as well as pursuing academic quality. The steering group that is responsible for planning the merger is also acutely aware of this vocational need, and the draft charter which the steering group has prepared makes specific reference to sub-degree and higher technician courses, as well as general degree and post-graduate work. It also places an obligation on the new institution to conduct regular reviews of the university's success in meeting these objectives.

I was not aware of there being special problems in terms of the North Down Technical College, but if the noble Lord will give me further information on some of his anxieties. I shall of course have the matter looked into. On the special arrangements being made to meet the requirements of the youth training programme at the college, I would say that eight additional temporary classrooms have been provided and accommodation has been rented in Bangor for the Youthway courses.

The noble Baroness, Lady Ewart-Biggs, asked about the housing executive's programmes. I share her concern, and the concern of others of your Lordships, about the need to improve from a very poor base the housing stock in Northern Ireland, as well as the connection between poor housing in inner cities and some of the problems in the Province. In respect of the failure of the European Community regulation proposing special aid for housing in Northern Ireland, I have to say, as I think the noble Baroness will be aware, that the proposal failed to secure agreement at the Council of Ministers because of reservations expressed by the German Government. However, discussions on aid for Northern Ireland are continuing, and I can say that it has not been necessary to effect any reduction in housing programmes in the current financial year due to non-receipt of European Community aid.

However, because of the doubts surrounding future aid from the Community for housing in Northern Ireland, the Government feel that it would be unrealistic to plan future programmes on the assumption that such special aid would be available, and the housing executive has been advised to adjust its forward programmes by reducing the annual planned level of new starts from 5,250 to 4,500—a reduction of 750, for which European Community aid had previously been assumed. But I can say that we as a Government have been unremitting in our efforts to bring to a successful conclusion the Commission's initiative. My right honourable friend has been to Brussels in order to pursue the issue, and my honourable friend Mr. Mitchell went there shortly before Christmas. Of course, we all recognise that any progress on the question must be dependent on the initiative having the support of all member states. To this end we are continuing to work hard with the Commission.

The noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, drew our attention to the issue of dogs. Very often when one raises an issue regarding dogs, people think that one is dealing with rather minor factors, but as the noble Lord well knows, this is a major problem in Northern Ireland. The present position with regard to the draft Order in Council on dog control is that the order, which was published on 8th July last, has now been amended to take account of comments made during the consultation period and during debates. It is expected that it will be laid before Parliament very shortly. In using that term I do not want to fall into the trap that your Lordships baited for my noble friend Lord Swinton the other day, but I think that in this context "very shortly" probably means this week.

I share the noble Lord's concern regarding the conveyance of live animals; he referred to poultry. This matter is covered by statute. The Conveyance of Live Poultry (Ireland) Order 1979 covers the carriage of poultry by road, rail, and sea, and the order still applies in Northern Ireland, as does the Welfare of Animals Act 1972, with its general provisions. All complaints, whether from welfare organisations or the public, are investigated, and the department is willing to prosecute if it is at all possible. I shall take note of the points that the noble Lord put to us in this regard.

The noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, then moved on to the question of the less favoured areas. I have to say to him that all boundaries carry with them the likelihood of boundary disputes. There are, for instance, questions such as: Where should an enterprise zone begin or end? Where should a boundary of a less favoured area begin or end? I am aware that in some areas there is dissatisfaction about the drawing of lines. The proposed boundary line cannot be regarded as definitive until Brussels has decided on the areas to be designated. Representations will then be considered, but I warn the House that it is my belief that the scope for adjustment will be somewhat limited.

The noble Lord asked me why there was a five-year wait before new starts can be made by housing associations, despite the increases in finance provided, which he generously acknowledged. As the current housing associations' development proposals contain schemes amounting in total to £60 million, it is necessary to programme them over a period of years to ensure the proper control of available funds and the application of those funds on a priority basis.

The noble Lord asked me about the restoration of the electricity inter-connector with the Republic. I share very strongly with him the view that this would be desirable, and both sides of the border, which in economic terms is fairly artificial in many areas, would benefit from the restoration of the link. We are determined to restore it as soon as practicable, but, as the noble Lord will appreciate, the detail of this is not I think a matter that is appropriate for debate on the Floor of the House, though of course it is a perfectly fair and suitable point for him to raise.

The noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, asked me whether I would make a statement on the Strangford Lough Ferry Order 1983. This revised the maximum levels for the tolls or dues recoverable from users of the ferry, and it will enable the Department of the Environment in Northern Ireland to continue its policy of fixing annually tolls for the ferry over the next five years, or such longer periods as economic circumstances may permit. The ferry, which I have had the pleasure of using, obviates a journey of 45 miles around the head of the loch, and it therefore results in a very considerable saving in terms of both time and cost for traffic from Downpatrick and its hinterland, bound for the Ards peninsular, and vice versa.

Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Blease—

Lord Dunleath

My Lords, if the noble Earl will forgive me—and he is now moving on to his final point—could he give us, before he sits down, the reply to the question of whether he and his colleagues want the Northern Ireland Assembly to work or not? If they do, will they pay respect to resolutions passed without Division by that Assembly?

The Earl of Gowrie

My Lords, I have already given that reply, both in my opening remarks and at the beginning of my speech in winding up the debate on the appropriation order. Of course, the Government are committed to the Assembly, but our commitment to the Assembly and to its part in achieving greater political progress towards stability in Northern Ireland does not mean that the Government are bound to agree with the Assembly on every particular. I will look at the issue on hare coursing, which was new to me—and as the noble Lord will be aware, it is not my direct area of responsibility in Northern Ireland. The noble Lord must not tempt us into thinking that an agreement to differ on an issue between the Government and the Assembly in some way undermines our commitment to that body or to the achievement of political progress. If I may so respectfully suggest, I hope he will not put it quite in that way.

The two last points which I wished to make were in response to the noble Lord, Lord Blease. The noble Lord asked about the IDB guidelines. These were published on Friday, 11th March, and copies were widely distributed. In due course the board will be publishing its own industrial development strategy document. I will endeavour to see that there is a copy of this document placed in the Library of your Lordships' House. The noble Lord, Lord Blease—and this point was taken up by the noble Baroness, Lady Ewart-Biggs—added his concerns to those of others about the construction industry in the Province and wanted to know when the Secretary of State was going to make a statement. The Government continue to be aware of the importance to the Province of the construction industry. The plans for public expenditure, which I have mentioned, provide for capital expenditure totalling £611 million in 1983–84, an increase of 8 per cent. over the previous year, and some £10 million higher than previous plans. In addition to capital expenditure on construction, this large sum includes expenditure on grants and loans to the private sector, which generates considerable work for the construction industry.

Current expenditure on maintenance will also generate work for the industry. In particular the plans for 1983–84 provide for the high level of house building established last year to be maintained, as the Housing Executive has acknowledged. A further £5 million has been added to the £12 million package of measures to assist areas of special need which was announced last year. These levels of public spending are a substantial contribution to reducing unemployment in the construction industry and they are being made, as I said at the beginning, at a difficult time. Noble Lords should be under no doubt. There is no way in which we can solve the problems of employment in Northern Ireland through public spending alone. They are too deep-seated. High rates of public spending are an earnest of our own contribution but, as we constantly urge, Northern Ireland must start to make its own contribution towards the settling of its very deep-seated and long-standing difficulties.

Baroness Ewart-Biggs

My Lords, before the noble Earl sits down may I say that I know I did not give him notice of my question about statutory rights for the homeless in Northern Ireland referred to in the report by Shelter. Will he be good enough to write to me on this subject, as it does seem a very important point?

The Earl of Gowrie

My Lords, I am sorry that that point escaped me. I will write to the noble Baroness.

On Question, Motion agreed to.