HL Deb 11 March 1983 vol 440 cc428-32

11.22 a.m.

Lord Teviot

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Teviot.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[The Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE in the Chair.]

Lord Teviot moved Amendment No.1:

Before Clause 1, insert the following new clause: Transfer to Public Record Office of records relating to births, deaths and marriages.

(" .—(1) After section 8 of the Public Records Act 1958 (court records) there shall be inserted the following section— Transfer to Public Record Office of records relating to births, deaths and marriages.

8A.—(1) This section applies to the following records, namely registers and certified copies of entries in registers, being registers or certified copies kept or deposited in the General Register Office under or in pursuance of any enactment (whether past or future) which provides for the registration of births, deaths or marriages, but excluding so much of any such record as relates to a still-birth.

(2) It shall be the duty of the Registrar General, not less than three months before the expiration of the period of one hundred years beginning with the 1st January next after the date of the registration under or in pursuance of any such enactment of any birth, death or marriage, to transfer to the Public Record Office any record to which this section applies relating to that birth, death or marriage (including any correction or addition made to that record after that date).

(3) Records transferred to the Public Record Office under this section shall not be available for public inspection until the expiration in relation to those records of the period of one hundred years mentioned in subsection (2) above; but (subject to that) it shall be the duty of the Keeper of Public Records to arrange that reasonable facilities are available to the public for inspecting and obtaining copies of the records so transferred.

(4) Records transferred to the Public Record Office under this section shall be in the custody of the Keeper of Public Records (instead of that of the Registrar General); and, where under or in pursuance of any enactment any duty is imposed on the Registrar General—

  1. (a) to keep records to which this section applies, or
  2. (b) to include references to records to which this section applies in indexes kept by him, or
  3. (c) to provide persons with certified copies of records to which this section applies,
that duty shall cease to apply in relation to any records which have been do transferred, in the case of a duty falling within paragraph (a) above, on the transfer and, in any other case, on the records being made available for public inspection.

(5) The Registrar General shall not be under any duty under section 33 of the Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953 (short certificate of birth) to provide any person with a short certificate of the birth of any person if the records relating to that birth have been transferred to the Public Record Office under this section and are availabe for public inspection.

(6) The Lord Chancellor may, if it appears to him in the interests of the proper administration of the Public Record Office, direct that the transfer of any class of records under this section shall be suspended until arrangements for their reception have been completed.

(7) Records transferred to the Public Record Office under this section shall be temporarily returned to the General Register Office at the request of the Registrar General; but the return of any records under this subsection shall not revive any duty referred to in subsection (4) or (5) above.

(8) A copy of or extract from a record transferred to the Public Record Office under this section and purporting to be examined and certified as true and authentic by the proper officer and to be sealed or stamped with the seal of the Public Record Office shall be received in evidence, and be of like force and effect, as if it had been so certified under the seal of the General Register Office.

(9) Her Majesty may, in relation to any class of records to which this section applies or to all such records, by Order in Council substitute references to a period of less than one hundred years for the references in subsections (2), (3) and (10) of this section to one hundred years or to any other period for the time being having effect by virtue of this subsection; but no recommendation shall be made to Her Majesty in Council to make an Order under this subsection unless a draft of the Order has been laid before Parliament and approved by resolution of each House of Parliament.

(10) Where for administrative purposes any records to which this section applies are kept together in one file or other assembly with other such records and the period of one hundred years mentioned in subsection (2) above would (apart from this subsection) expire in relation to the records so kept at different times, then the period shall be deemed to expire in relation to each record kept in that file or other assembly at the latest of those times.

(11) For the purposes of this section—

  1. (a) where a birth has been both registered and re-registered, or a death has been registered more than once, the records relating to each registration or re-registration shall be treated as if they related to the registration of a different birth or death; and
  2. (b) 'still birth' has the same meaning as in the Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953.".

(2) Subject to subsection (3) below, the new section inserted by subsection (1) above shall have effect in relation to any records relating to a birth, death or marriage which was registered one hundred years or more before 1st January next after the coming into force of this section as if the obligations imposed by subsections (2) and (3) of the new section to transfer the records to the Public Record Office and to make them available for public inspection fell to be performed as soon after the coming into force of this section as it is practicable for the records, respectively, to be so transferred and to be made so available.

(3) Nothing in subsection (2) above shall require any records to be transferred to the Public Record Office or made available for public inspection at any time earlier than the time at which by virtue of any of the provisions of the said new section those records would (apart from that subsection) fall to be so transferred or made so available.")

The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 1, and wish to speak to Amendments Nos. 2 and 3, which are consequential on it. The Bill, as it stands, modifies the exclusion of registers, et cetera, held at the General Register Office from the definition in Schedule 1 to the Public Records Act 1958 of "public records". It makes exclusion apply only to those registers, et cetera, which are 100 years old or less. Registers or certified copies of entries would thus became "public records" for the purposes of the 1958 Act once they were 100 years old or more, and thereby became open to public inspection. Unfortunately this approach does not quite fit in with other parts of the 1958 Act which, for example, assume that a public record is such from its creation. Similarly, it does not fit in with Sections 3 and 5 of the 1958 Act, which make provision for selection and transfer of records within 30 years.

These amendments would form a new clause to be inserted into the Public Records Act 1958 as a new Section 8A. The effect of the amendments is to provide that one-hundred-year old records of births, deaths and marriages which are kept at the General Registry Office, together with the related indexes, shall be transferred to the Public Record Office and made available for public inspection. The Registrar General will be relieved of his statutory duties in relation to these records. Records of still births and adoptions are excluded from the provisions of the Bill, but events recorded abroad are included.

Now it is for me to explain briefly the meaning of some of the subsections of this new clause. If it is not clear I hope that your Lordships will ask me questions, and if I cannot answer them I shall write. Subsection (1) is plainly the definition. Subsection (2) ensures that transfer of records from the Registrar General to the Public Record Office takes place three months before the date of opening to the public when they become 100 years old.

Subsection (3) provides for the opening, and date of public access. Subsection (4) relieves the Registrar General of his existing duties in respect of these records. Subsection (5) provides that the Registrar General will not be able to provide a short birth certificate for public inspection, nor will the Public Record Office be able to do so. However, if members of the public wish to get one they can do so from either a local or a superintending registrar.

Subsection (6) is a safeguard to allow the Lord Chancellor to direct that the transfer of any class of record be suspended until arrangements for their reception have been completed. Subsection (7) allows for the records to be temporarily transferred back to the Registrar General in case they wish to display them for exhibition purposes, or the like. Subsection (8) permits the Public Record Office to issue certified copies. Subsection (9) provides that an order in council be approved by both Houses of Parliament in case it is thought prudent at any time to reduce the closure period of 100 years. Subsection (10) repeats Clause 10(2) of the existing Public Records Act.

Subsection 11 ensures that where a birth has been both registered and re-registered, or a death has been registered more than once, the records relating to each registration or re-registration shall be treated as if they related to the registration of a different birth or death.

Section (2) deals with the transition provisions and with arrangements which are being made for this Bill to be enacted. I beg to move.

The Lord Chancellor

I think I said on Second Reading that the Government support the objectives of this Bill. The amendments proposed by my noble friend are necessary drafting changes. They have the same purpose and effect as his general draft, but are rendered necessary for technical reasons. In supporting them I should like to thank my noble friend for both his patience and his skill in dealing with this highly complex and technical matter in conjunction with the parliamentary draftsmen and officials of my department. I am grateful to him.

Lord Elwyn-Jones

I, too, should like to give a meed of support to this Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Teviot, has been very wisely persistent in this matter. I am afraid he was less successful with me than with the present incumbent of the office of Lord Chancellor, but that was not through lack of sympathy on my part. He identified in the debate on Second Reading—and I was sorry I could not be here—the problem created at the moment by those who seek their roots, which has now become a popular pastime apparently; namely, the problem of, as we say in Wales, the paucity of patronymics in the Principality. We Joneses suffer a good deal from that.

I remember doing a case at Caernarvon Assizes (if the Committee will forgive me a moment's frivolity) when everyone in the case was Jones. The plaintiff and the defendant were Jones. I was led by my namesake, William Elwyn-Jones. Mars-Jones was leading Lloyd-Jones, and the judge was Austin Jones. My first witness was John Methuselah Jones, and I regret to say that I could not resist the temptation, having got his name and address, to ask him how old he was, which I fear did not amuse Mr. Justice Austin Jones. However, that is all by the way.

This seems a useful measure. There is nothing very revolutionary about it. One hundred years must pass before identification of the particulars and before they can be made available, and it obviously serves a useful and historic purpose.

Lord Teviot

I thank my noble and learned friend for his kind comments. I thank him very much for dealing with the matter and particularly I thank the officials who have been most patient in producing these highly technical amendments. I also thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones, for his amusing comments; I suffer from time to time looking for the name of Jones. I am sure the Joneses of Wales will find it very much easier to find their Joneses by looking directly at the registers.

I would only add that, as I propose to delete the following two clauses, if your Lordships say "Not-Content" instead of "Content", that will avoid confusion.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clauses 1 and 2 disagreed to.

Clause 3 [Short title, citation and commencement]:

Lord Teviot moved Amendment No. 2:

Page 2, line 12, leave out from ("1982") to end of line 13.

The noble Lord said: This is consequential on Amendment No. 1. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Teviot moved Amendment No. 3:

Page 2, line 17, leave out subsection (3).

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.

House resumed: Bill reported with the amendments.