§ Lord Boyd-CarpenterMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how many wages councils are still in existence; and whether they intend to close down any, and if so which.
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, there are currently 26 wages councils. There are no plans at present to abolish particular councils. However, each one is kept under scrutiny and we are ready to abolish individual councils when the need for them ceases to exist.
§ Lord Boyd-CarpenterMy Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that somewhat cryptic reply, may I ask him whether he and the department are aware of the fact that the employment of young persons is made much more difficult by wages councils' orders? Will they have a look at the problem from the angle of the employment of youth with a view to making some helpful improvements to the system?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, indeed we are very well aware that the proposals of some wages councils, particularly some made recently, have had an inhibiting effect on recruitment, particularly of young people, and this is an unhappy situation.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, will the noble Minister, when he is making this examination, bear in mind that the wages councils succeeded the old Trade Halls in 1928? The reason for their establishment was to see that anyone who did not have the cover of a trade union was not exploited. Young people were being ruthlessly exploited.
Does the noble Lord not agree that wages councils do not deliberately break the law of our land and that their fundamental principle is to defend people against such exploitation? Will he please take that into account in any examination that is made which might result in their abolition?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthIndeed my Lords, that was so at that time. But other and better wage negotiating procedures have been adopted, and as and when these come into full being throughout the remaining 26 councils the need for those councils will no longer exist.
§ Lord RochesterMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that a body as influential and impartial as the Institute of Personnel Management, which has wide knowledge and practical experience in these matters, has, as I understand it, expressed grave reservations about the 230 possibility of any drastic action in relation to the wages councils?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthNo, my Lords, I was not aware that that institute had expressed that view. Perhaps the contrary view should also obtain—that of the employers.
§ Lord BlytonMy Lords, will the Minister take care when abolishing the wages councils that it does not take us back to the days that we knew before they existed—the days of sweated labour and the exploitation of young people?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, I note what the noble Lord, Lord Blyton, says, but in my original Answer I said that Her Majesty's Government have no plans at present to abolish particular councils.
§ Lord DrumalbynMy Lords, can my noble friend say how many wages councils, if any, have been abolished in the past 10 years?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthYes, my Lords. About 10 in the last 10 years.
§ Lord Boyd-CarpenterMy Lords, will my noble friend not be misled by the extreme conservatism of the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, and realise that things have changed since 1928?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthIndeed, my Lords; I thank my noble friend for that intervention. To put it properly into perspective, I think that perhaps I should say that the remaining 26 councils in fact look after the wages interests of only 2¾ million people.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, will the noble Lord also bear in mind that the creation of wages councils was to stop ruthless exploitation of our fellow citizens by extreme Conservatives?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, that may have obtained at that time, but I hardly think that ruthless exploitation obtains today.