§ 2.51 p.m.
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what was the total grant made by the Arts Council to theatres in the last year for which figures are available; and how much of this went to theatres outside London.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy (The Earl of Avon)My Lords, the Arts Council estimate that their direct grants to theatres in Great Britain, including the national theatre companies, in 1982–83 will total just under £26.3 million, of which almost £16.1 million will be available to theatres outside London. In addition, grants of about £1.8 million will be given by regional arts associations, mainly from funds provided by the Arts Council.
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for that very encouraging Answer. Does he agree that the importance of the living theatre to this country is very great? Is he aware that, for example, the Arts Theatre in Cambridge can only be sure of making a profit when it does Gilbert and Sullivan or Agatha Christie? Does he not agree that this is not a very encouraging situation for new playwrights who should be encouraged? Therefore, one supports this amount of grant.
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, I am interested in the double which Cambridge has done of Gilbert and Sullivan and Agatha Christie. So far as the playwrights are concerned, of course the Arts Council does indeed support new playwrights when it can.
§ Lord StrabolgiMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware that the belated decision of the Royal Opera House of Covent Garden to perform in Manchester next September is to be warmly welcomed? Will he suggest to the Arts Council that they should do all that they can to encourage London-based companies to perform in other cities in the United Kingdom?
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, I echo the gratitude of the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, that the Royal Opera House Company is going to Manchester. Of course, a large part of the sums paid out are in fact for touring.
§ Lord AlportMy Lords, while those who are concerned with the provincial theatres are very grateful to the Arts Council for the support which has been given over many years, is my noble friend aware that, owing to the prohibitive cost of going to the theatre in London for many of those who live outside the capital, the provincial theatre is becoming increasingly the important centre for dramatic art for the whole of this country? Is he aware that those who are concerned with it would welcome very greatly any change in the taxation policy of Her Majesty's Government at the next Budget which would enable 235 the removal of the unfair incidence of VAT on tickets and, therefore, enable the theatres to recoup what they really deserve to recoup from the attendance which they encourage at these theatres?
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, I support virtually everything that my noble friend says until he comes to the question of taxation, which is a matter for my right honourable friend in another place.
§ The Earl of LauderdaleMy Lords, can my noble friend say what proportion of the help which he has talked about goes to Scotland?
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, as this Question was originally put down by my noble friend Lady Elliot of Harwood I have the figure handy; in 1981–82 it was £2,105,289.
§ Lord GlenamaraMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware that a great many people agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington, that far too much goes to one or two so-called national bodies in London which are patronised mainly by rich people living in London and the Home Counties and by companies purchasing blocks of seats, and far too little goes to the struggling provincial theatres? Is the noble Lord aware that the Arts Council, by this policy, is unwittingly contributing to the "two nations" which the Government's economic policy is creating? Will he look at this imbalance in the distribution of Arts Council funds?
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, I do not agree with the noble Lord. The Arts Council takes a great deal of trouble to make sure that its money is spent across the board, and when supporting even the large national companies in London we must bear in mind that the National Theatre Company itself has a widely drawn audience from all walks of life and helps a great deal to make the "one nation" policy to which we all look forward.
§ Lord Elwyn-JonesMy Lords, the noble Earl has been good enough to give the figure for support for theatres in Scotland. The House will be amazed to learn that I would like a similar figure for the Welsh National Opera Company and the Welsh National Theatre.
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, the figure for Scotland which I gave to my noble friend was for the year 1981–82. The figure for the same year for Wales was £1,512,722.
§ Lord Davies of LeekMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware that, while we welcome the Question on the theatre and also welcome the Answer, there is no doubt, as has already been pointed out, that provincial theatres must be kept alive? Secondly, from the philosphical point of view, the Church and the theatre have played a great part in the history of this country. All changes—social, political, moral and so on—throughout history have had the theatre and the Church behind them. To neglect the theatre would be wrong. Consequently, I welcome this increase in attention and I hope it will be given to the provincial areas.
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his remarks. I should perhaps draw your Lordship's attention to the quite considerable number of subsidised plays which are brought up from the provincial theatres to London. I have in mind the Nuffield Southampton Theatre which had a play called "Nuts", which was transferred to the Whitehall Theatre.