HL Deb 29 June 1983 vol 443 cc241-2
The Earl of Kinnoull

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will consider establishing independent machinery for monitoring non-statutory undertakings given by Ministers during the passage of legislation.

The Minister of State, Privy Council Office, and Minister for the Arts (The Earl of Gowrie)

My Lords, it is obligatory on Ministers to honour any undertakings that are given by them to Parliament on behalf of the Government during the passage of legislation, or at any other time. I do not consider, however, that monitoring procedures on the lines suggested by my noble friend would be either practicable or necessary.

The Earl of Kinnoull

My Lords, while I am grateful for my noble friend's Answer, would he agree that in recent years it has become the practice, with contentious legislation passing through this House, for Bills often to become festooned with ministerial undertakings, undertakings which are not written into the Bill? As a reforming Chamber, is it not odd that there is no apparent central record of such undertakings? Should there not be a central record? And should there not be a record available in the Library?

The Earl of Gowrie

My Lords, I should have thought that there was such a central record of undertakings. It goes by the name of Hansard. Parliament is well placed to keep an eye on what Ministers say during the passage of legislation. Of course there is a whole ministerial range, from sympathy to commitment, and allowance would have to be made for that.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for that answer, but can he go further and say whether or not there is in existence a body of evidence that non-statutory undertakings are in fact being disregarded in relation to specific legislation or to a range of legislation?

The Earl of Gowrie

My Lords, I do not have any evidence of that, though I shall take up the point which the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition has made. It may be that Ministers must discipline themselves about the undertakings which they make. On the other hand, we would not want them to be so non-committal as to bore your Lordships or Members of another place.

Lord Byers

My Lords, would not the noble Earl agree that a responsibility is placed upon the noble Lord concerned who has asked for the assurance to follow it up in the name of the House?

The Earl of Gowrie

My Lords, that is a very wise point. I hope that my noble friend and others will take note of it.

Lord Leatherland

My Lords, does the Minister recollect that some time ago an undertaking was given by Ministers to abolish local rates? When is that likely to come about?

The Earl of Gowrie

My Lords, as I remember, that undertaking was given by Ministers in their party political guise rather than as Ministers. It is the job, surely, of politicians to test their commitments against the hard facts of government when they get there and to try to tailor their programmes to what they find.

Lord Leatherland

My Lords, is the Minister saying that when he makes a promise he does not intend to carry it out?

The Earl of Gowrie

Not at all, my Lords, but debates on taxation take place in all political parties at all times. It is thoroughly desirable that they should do so, otherwise we should end up with ever escalating rates of tax.

Lord Hooson

My Lords, would not the noble Earl agree that one of the worst habits of Ministers is to give an undertaking as to their understanding of the meaning of clauses in Bills which has no effect whatsoever on the interpretation of that legislation when it later comes to be interpreted by the courts? That is the way which is often used by Ministers of all parties to avoid further debate on the clauses of a Bill.

The Earl of Gowrie

My Lords, the parliamentary draftsmen are very adept at helping us out of the holes we dig for ourselves in that respect.

Viscount St. Davids

My Lords, what is to be done to Ministers who break their undertakings? In these days of possible hanging and flogging, will Ministers be suspended, or will they be handed to the Lords with White Staves?

The Earl of Gowrie

My Lords, Ministers are answerable to your Lordships and I think your Lordships know very well what to do with them.

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