§ 2.49 p.m.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government why they have not legislated to protect the Atlantic salmon, which is now seriously threatened by illegal and uncontrolled methods of fishing; what countermeasures they are considering; which they regard as practical; and whether they will introduce legislation in this Parliament.
§ The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Lord Belstead)My Lords, legislation already exists to protect the Atlantic salmon in Great Britain where, in general, it is an offence to take salmon without proper authority. However, in the consultation paper on our review of inland and coastal fisheries, published in 1981, we sought the cooperation of salmon interests in putting forward proposals to deal with the illegal catching of salmon. My honourable friend the Minister of State announced in another place last Thursday that as a direct result of our consultations the National Water Council had now published the report of their Salmon Sales Group, Salmon Conservation—A New Approach. The group itself has recognised that considerable problems remain before their proposals can be given practical application. However, we welcome the report and will be consulting the group and the other interests concerned to see whether the proposals provide a practical basis for legislation to deal with the problems now affecting our stocks of Atlantic salmon.
Lord ChelwoodMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that that is a very disappointing Answer which seems to show no sense of urgency at all? May I ask him, first, whether the Government accept that salmon—which is a very valuable national asset—is now at serious risk? Secondly, is he aware that the use of poison and monofilament gill nets is on an extremely large scale and is doing a great deal of damage, but that the punishment does not seem to fit the crime? Is my noble friend further aware that, as proof of how serious the decline in Atlantic salmon appears to be, figures seem to show that licensed netsmen in Scotland in the last decade have seen the tonnage caught decline by very nearly 50 per cent.? Is this not a really serious matter, which previous Governments have shirked? Are we not prepared to face up to it?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords. I entirely agree with my noble friend Lord Chelwood that there is undoubtedly evidence of illegal catching of salmon and that it is on a substantial scale. I can assure my noble friend that the Government are well aware of the need for prompt action. We shall consult urgently with representatives of importers and wholesale and retail distributors, as well as with salmon fishermen and farmers, to seek their views on the Salmon Sales Group's report.
§ Baroness WhiteMy Lords, can the noble Lord the Minister tell the House—particularly in regard to Wales, since salmon from Wales is as fine a delicacy as salmon from Scotland—what is to happen to the group to which he referred, which is studying this matter, following the demise of the National Water Council, which is about to expire?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, all those who are members of the group, with the exception of the secretary, are members of water authorities. Those water authorities remain in being, and so it will be perfectly possible for the Government to do that which I have said to my noble friend Lord Chelwood will be done, which is to consult with the group urgently.
§ Lord GlenkinglasMy Lords, has my noble friend seen an article in The Times today which shows that the Iceland Government, faced with the same problem, took all nets off and are now getting more than double the number of fish in their rivers that they did 10 years ago? If that is too drastic a solution, can my noble friend bear in mind that New Zealand, which has exactly the same problem with trout, has totally banned the sale of trout, and so, in New Zealand. there is no more poaching?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for drawing that point to the attention not only of the House but also of the Government.
§ Lord John-MackieMy Lords, as I believe everyone knows, salmon are fairly common to Wales, Scotland and elsewhere, and I believe that the claim of my noble friend Lady White that Welsh salmon tastes differently is open to doubt. This is a long-standing problem, as we all know, and in raising this matter the noble Lord, Lord Chelwood, has done a service in pressing the Government to do something about the matter.
§ Lord John-MackieMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord the Minister whether he realises that the technology of poaching has increased immensely in the past few years with, as the noble Lord, Lord Chelwood, said, the coming of nylon nets floating near the surface, silent motor boats, and so on. One of the big problems—
§ Lord John-MackieMy Lords, does the noble Lord the Minister realise that one of the problems is the unscrupulous buyer? If something could be done about unscrupulous buyers, that would go a long way to solving the problem.
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for putting his finger on that particular point. It is towards that objective, as I understand it, that the Salmon Sales Group's recommendations are particularly aimed. We have to look very carefully at the recommendation for tagging because there are some problems; there is no doubt about that.
Lord ChelwoodMy Lords, is my noble friend considering the possibility of licensing salmon dealers, following the precedent of the Deer Bill? That is something that might be of real help; and, perhaps, licensing rodsmen as well. When legislation is introduced—and I hope it will not be long before that happens—will it cover the whole of the United Kingdom, because surely it should do so?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords. I believe that the question of licensing was raised in the consultation paper in 1981. It would have been for the Salmon Sales Group, if it had wished, to have gone for the licensing option. In fact, it went for the tagging option, and that is the option we shall be looking at urgently.
§ Lord StrabolgiMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that his answer is almost exactly the same as answers given by me some five years ago? Can the Government not move a little more quickly, particularly with attempting to curtail the black market in illegally caught salmon?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, the final point made by the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, brings us back to the recommendation made by the Salmon Sales Group. It is precisely the point that will be dealt with by the recommendation of the group; but I will not conceal from the House that the group's recommendation has some problems in it, and these problems do need to be discussed—but urgently.
Earl HaigMy Lords, does my noble friend accept that in my part of the world, on the River Tweed, the situation is getting so serious that the netting industry is about to go out of business, or is getting near to that stage?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, I am sorry to hear that, but I am grateful to my noble friend for giving me that information.