HL Deb 14 July 1983 vol 443 cc906-10

4.7 p.m.

Lord Belstead

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will repeat a Statement being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food:

"With permission, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement on the Council of Fisheries Ministers meeting in Brussels on 11th and 12th July.

"Together with my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and my right honourable friend the Minister of State in my department, I represented the United Kingdom.

"After further lengthy discussions the council could not reach agreement on the package of proposals for total allowable catches, quotas, associated conservation provisions and structural implementing measures which were under consideration. Nor was it possible, because one member state invoked its vital national interest, to reach agreement on interim measures which would have permitted fishermen from member states and from Norway to continue fishing for North Sea herring.

"However, the principal problem was on North Sea herring and it was agreed that a commission group of experts should be asked to carry out an urgent study of the allocation of quotas for this stock. This is a technical study and it is clearly established that the group will be concerned only with the application of the criteria laid down in the council declaration of 30th May 1980. The work will he completed in time to report to the council at its next meeting, now scheduled for 25th and 26th July. In the meantime, fishing for herring in the North Sea by those member states who have exhausted their interim quotas and by Norway will cease.

"I took the opportunity to press the commission on the need for more rapid implementation of the arrangements for enforcement. I am glad to say that the commission undertook to have at least some of their inspectors in post by the end of September and to have logbooks in operation before 1st November. These will he significant steps towards more effective control to which I attach considerable importance".

That, my Lords, concludes my right honourable friend's statement.

4.9 p.m.

Lord Bishopston

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement which has been made in the other place. I shall put to him one or two questions as briefly as I can. I believe that they cover the main aspects of concern. Is the Minister aware that the House will view with some concern the breakdown of the arrangements announced as recently, as 13 days ago? Does he recall that on 1st July the Minister said that the common fisheries policy as a whole laid the ground for a fisheries policy for the next 20 years and that he was optimistic? That was despite the arrangements announced as recently as January.

On inspection, which is a most important point, does the noble Lord not agree that all the arrangements within the EEC member states are ineffective if there is inadequate policing by EEC members and by the United Kingdom? As the noble Lord knows, the United Kingdom has a very special interest because the fish are in what we still term as "our" 200-mile limit. What special action will the Ministry's fisheries protection vessels be taking—including the use of Nimrods? I noted in the newspaper today that Nimrods may not be used because they cannot fly low enough, although that statement is not borne out by my own experience of Nimrods when I had responsibilities for fishing.

With regard to trans-shipping, is the noble Lord able to say what checks are made in respect of the trans-shipping of fish to third country vessels, and what inspection is made of quota catches, whether they are trans-shipped or landed by member states? With regard to Scotland and herring—a most important aspect—is the Minister aware of the deep concern felt by our fishing industry as to its uncertain future and as to the need to reach an agreement to protect the industry's interests, especially off the West Coast of Scotland and in northern and central parts of the North Sea? Is the noble Lord able to say what consultation has taken place with the industry?

When it comes to the general fisheries policy, it is quite apparent that although the Statement deals with matters of immediate concern—such as herring—the Minister has admitted, in the very first paragraph of the Statement, that there has been no agreement with member states on a number of important aspects of the CFP. Can the noble Lord say what hopes he has in that direction?

Finally, I note from the last paragraph of the Statement it is suggested that no action may be taken on enforcement until, possibly, the end of September or from the 1st November—this is rather a long period at this troubled time, when every one of the member states is pressing for a share in the allocation. Will the Minister also bear in mind that, as two-thirds of the fish in EEC waters are within our 200-mile limit, we have a very special interest in the future of our industry, and that this needs to be borne in mind in any settlements which are arrived at?

4.15 p.m.

Lord Mackie of Benshie

My Lords, I too should like to thank the noble Lord the Minister for repeating the Statement—which reveals what one can only call a frightful mess. 1 should first like to ask the noble Lord if he does not agree that we really must achieve majority voting when it comes to these vital questions. I do not know whether this is more of a reluctant compromise, but it is high time that we had majority voting or nearly unanimous voting. For just one country to upset the whole apple cart continually is not good enough if we are ever going to get anywhere; I assume that the one nation is Denmark.

I should also like to ask the Minister whether he is satisfied that the arrangements for the control of industrial fishing are satisfactory, because my information from the trade is that one really cannot control matters if one does not know what they are sucking up. The latest demand to separate the herring indicates the kind of catches that they make, 'to the immense detriment of the herring in the North Sea. As the North Sea has been over-fished for years—and we had a ban on it for a great many years but have now opened it again—can the noble Lord tell us whether the scientists are entirely sure that the quota was justified and whether they will be consulted by the commission of experts who are to fix the quotas in trying to allocate the quotas for agreement on 25th and 26th July?

Finally, is it not extraordinary that we set off to fish for this immensely scarce resource, which has been in great trouble, and yet there are no enforcement measures in being to enforce? Is there any truth in the newspaper reports that the Dutch are simply filling up their holds and proceeding home without regard to any quota whatsoever? It appears that the Minister's concern over enforcement is a little late, and I hope that he will be able to push the point very hard at the next meeting of the council.

Lord Belstead

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Bishopston and Lord Mackie of Benshie, for what they have said—albeit not without criticism—about that which occurred at the Fisheries Council on 11th and 12th July. The first point I would make in reply to the noble Lord, Lord Bishopston, is that the problem over herring, on which the meeting of three days ago foundered, does not mean that the common fisheries policy has foundered. It was always recognised that the setting of the North Sea herring quotas would be very difficult. Although that has proved to be the case, the other major advances, made on such matters as quotas other than for herring, access, technical conservation measures and structural assistance to the industry from the commission, are still valid and very much in place.

I agree with both noble Lords that an adequate inspection policy is needed. The noble Lord, Lord Bishopston, asked a specific question about what we are doing. The noble Lord will know very well from his own ministerial experience that the protection services are divided into five equal parts. All are vigilant at the present time so far as the weather allows them to be—and the noble Lord himself made the point about the restrictions on flying that there are from time to time. All I would say on the question of enforcement is that we attach importance to the undertaking that was given in response to my right honourable friend's initiative at the council about getting on with the setting up of the inspectorates, to be in place by the end of September.

If the noble Lord, Lord Bishopston, will forgive me, I really must write to him with regard to the point he raised about trans-shipment, because I do not have an answer to that. But on consultation with the industry, perhaps I might return to the first point I made: that, of course, the consultation arrangements between my right honourable friend and the industry are, I hope, in as good working order as ever. I assure the noble Lord that we are not talking about a different situation now, so far as general quotas are concerned. We are talking about being unable to reach an agreement on the total yearly quota for herring at the present time. Without that, it was not possible to achieve an agreement on the whole package comprising all the other parts of the common fisheries policy. The Government hope very much that when the council re-assembles on 25th and 26th July these matters will be sorted out.

May I say in reply to the noble Lord, Lord Mackie of Benshie, that I understand absolutely why he made the point about majority voting; but in case there is any misunderstanding, my understanding is that quotas are decided under Article 43 of the treaty—and that means by majority voting. Nonetheless, the Luxembourg Compromise was on this occasion invoked by Denmark. Her Majesty's Government have made their position clear on the Luxembourg Compromise, and that remains unchanged.

The noble Lord also asked me about the view of scientists. It seems to me that this is a matter which should be discussed within the council, and for evidence to be given by the commission to the council. The right thing for me to do on that point is to draw to the attention of my right honourable friend that which the noble Lord, Lord Mackie of Benshie, has said, so that my right honourable friend will have his comments in mind when he travels to Brussels once again in 10 days' time.

4.19 p.m.

Baroness Hornsby-Smith

My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for repeating the Statement made in another place, may I ask whether he is aware that although this may deal only with herring, it had been a bitter blow to the fishing industry, which has such high hopes of the general EEC agreement made only a few months ago? If the Danes can get away with herring, then before long it will be another type of fish—and this is the fear of the trawlermen around our coasts.

Can my noble friend say what representations have been made either through the EEC or directly to the Danish Government? They, according to reports, have not only over-fished their own quota but have taken so many herring that they have the entire quota for all the EEC countries. It really is quite intolerable that this should have been allowed to go on when we have gone to such lengths to try to conserve herring. Perhaps if the Government do not feel able to go through the long and bureaucratic processes of the EEC they might take note of a trawlerman's comment, "I have told my wife that I will divorce her if she buys any more Danish bacon". If we stopped buying Danish bacon they would soon stop taking our herrings.

Lord Belstead

My Lords, I think it is important for me to make the point to my noble friend that those member states which have exhausted their interim quotas have had to stop fishing, and other member states will have to stop fishing as their interim quotas become exhausted. The daily catches reports are published; and all your Lordships will have seen, as I have, the reports in the newspapers today, which make it sound as if there is not very much moving in the North Sea so far as herring fishing is concerned. This again underlines the importance of the undertaking which my right honourable friend the Minister managed to secure at the council so far as concerns getting the inspectorates properly set up immediately. So far as my noble friend's general point is concerned, as to what is to be done, we really must wait for another 10 days until the 25th and 26th July; certainly the United Kingdom will be doing its very best to see that the whole package is agreed on that occasion.

Lord Glenkinglas

My Lords, will my noble friend thank his right honourable and honourable friends for the efforts they have so far successfully made? Will he ask them to bear in mind that it is not only the lack of herring which most of us feel rather strongly about, but also the lack of a great deal of employment opportunities which have been created in Aberdeen, Peterhead and Fraserburgh to process the herring and give employment and pleasure to the people who work and to people who eat the herring? Would my noble friend ask his right honourable and honourable friends to do everything they can within reason to frustrate the Danes, who have already tried to ruin salmon fishing?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, I will certainly draw the attention of my right honourable friend and my honourable friend, who have both been attending the council, to the words of my noble friend Lord Glenkinglas; and also to the importance which, he quite rightly reminds the Government, attaches to this matter so far as employment is concerned.