Local Government Independence (Hansard, 12 July 1983)

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Bellwin)
My Lords, the independence of local government resides in its freedom to make decisions within the framework laid down by Parliament. Our present arrangements rest on the assumption that local authorities will have regard to long-standing conventions relating to national spending and other policies.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. Is he aware—as he surely must he—that there is genuine concern throughout all branches of local government, associations as well as local councils, that some of the action taken and anticipated by the Government is redolent of authoritarian Government rather than democratic Government? Will he agree that the Government should think again about some of the things that they have in mind for exercising such severe control over democratically elected bodies in British local government?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, yes, I am aware of the concern to which the noble Lord refers. But it has always been recognised that the Government have a legitimate interest in the level of local government spending as a whole. Furthermore, in many areas ratepayers are a relatively small minority of those eligible to vote in local authority elections. Indeed, business ratepayers as such have no vote at all. So our proposals for rate reform will include steps to improve the accountability of local authorities to those who shoulder the burden.

§ Viscount Massereene and Ferrard
My Lords, will my noble friend not agree that some local authorities, particularly Labour, have used their independence to squander ratepayers' money in a disgraceful manner? May I point out such an absurdity as Lambeth which appointed, I understand, a Poet Laureate?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, one could have a long debate and give many instances that are a matter for concern but I do not think, in answering the original Question, that I would wish you to do so today.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, would not the Minister agree that one has to take account of the wishes of the electors in a particular area and that they should not be insulted for wanting certain decisions made on behalf of their area? Is the Minister aware that some of the projected legislation is being strongly criticised by the local authority associations? Will the Government have discussions with the associations not about how to introduce legislation but whether it is desirable?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, the Government have come to the conclusion that the proposed legislation is not merely desirable, it is absolutely essential. On the issue of discussions and consultations, I confirm that we intend to have the broadest and most detailed consultation, perhaps more than ever before, on this matter.

§ Lord Nugent of Guildford
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that a basic principle of democratic Government is grievance before supply? That is a rule which the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, with his long and interesting history in the other place, will be well aware of. Is my noble friend aware that in all too many local authorities today the councils concerned seem unaware of the strength of grievance among those in the business community who are loaded with excessively high rates which are crippling their businesses and to which the local councils seem absolutely indifferent? Is my noble friend further aware that it is these business interests that look to central Government to give them some protection against the mulcting that they are suffering at the hands of their local authorities? Is my noble friend therefore aware that he is fully justified in the legislative action that he proposes to take?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for those observations with which I concur entirely. It is some of the situations that he has described that have inevitably led the Government to their proposed course.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, irrespective of parties, successive Governments in recent years have gradually whittled away the powers of local government so that our local government has fewer powers than almost any municipality in Europe or in the United States? Is he aware that if the Government persist in this course, local government will virtually become a nonentity? Will the Government not think again? They are proceeding in the wrong direction and should change their minds.

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, I would be more impressed by the noble Lord's concern for the independence of local government if I heard him speaking out about the many anti-democratic actions and abuses of basic local government freedoms that are taking place at the present time. It has to be said that it is irresponsible actions and the seeming inability of local government as a whole to do anything to curb them which have made it inevitable that the Government must act to protect ratepayers and their own macro-economic policies.

§ Lord Renton
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that some local authorities have whittled away their own responsibilities and powers with regard to the protection of their ratepayers and that they have done so by declaring so-called nuclear free zones, thereby exempting themselves from the responsibilities placed upon them by Parliament?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, my noble friend highlights one of the many steps taken by local government which in the past would never have been considered as having anything to do with local government.

§ Lord Beaumont of Whitley
My Lords, would not the true cure for the irresponsible actions of which the Minister speaks he to introduce a method of election that would return councils that represent the voters?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, I do not think that such a method would have any more beneficial effect in this country than it has when it pertains in other countries.

§ Lord Leatherland
My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that if in a certain district the councillors increased the rates, they themselves, as residents in that district, would have to pay those higher rates? Is that not a tribute to the virtue of councillors?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords. I said when answering the original question that one of the shortcomings is the fact that the number of people eligible to vote often does not bear relationship to those who in fact are paying the rates. Everyone would vote for everything if they did not have to pay anything towards it.

§ Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, in the original Answer which the Minister gave he said that local government which followed Government guidelines would have its own rights and controls and not have its independence diminished. Is he aware that as regards the guidelines laid down not only by the last Government but by a previous Government those local authorities who followed the guidelines and who did curtail their expenditure were disadvantaged as opposed to those who did not curb their exenditure in any way and who then found that later they had much more fat to cut than the good councils who were penalised much more? Will he take that into account when he starts to rearrange finances at a later date?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, I am sympathetic to the point that my noble friend raises. However, I think that the facts, when carefully analysed, would show that the situation is not as she has said. There is always a difficult situation when one comes to distribute grant and decide on levels of penalties, should those be necessary. I shall certainly bear in mind anything that anyone says that will make the proposed legislation better and as good as it can be.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the noble Minister aware that I completely appreciate some of the submissions which he made in his replies and a great deal of those made by the noble Lord, Lord Nugent of Guildford? I first became aware of them from Conservative circles in 1952 when I entered local government, and I have been aware of them ever since. Would the noble Lord 712 be prepared to consider that the complaints and apprehensions are not confined to one side of any particular council chamber in our land?—they are shared by Conservative majority groups and Labour minority groups and vice versa. If they do things that are wrong—

Noble Lords
Question!

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the noble Lord not aware that those things will involve the district auditor? We are becoming very concerned that there is unneccessary interference with British local government.

Noble Lords
Order!

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, it is very difficult to answer the last part of what the noble Lord said because I could not hear it. However, I think I understand the gist of what he was saying. I repeat what I said originally: that I know the concern to which he refers. We will take that into account as we come to the very broad consultations which we intend to have.

§ Lord Leatherland
My Lords, in view of the prosperity of agriculture, will the Government consider whether agriculture—which enjoys preferential rates at the moment—should have its rates raised to the level of ordinary industrial rates?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, I must confess that I did not follow the question too well.