HL Deb 28 January 1983 vol 438 cc467-70

11.13 a.m.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware that answers given by Lord Skelmersdale on 1st December (col.. 1236) were inaccurate in that maps of the Falkland Islands were on sale in London before and during the Argentine invasion and that these maps were marked, "Published by the Government of the United Kingdom and printed for the D.O.S. by the Ordnance Survey" and were based on surveys by Royal Navy helicopters and by HMS "Endurance" and were not tourist maps.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, the Government regard this as a serious and unwarranted charge. Had I been inaccurate in my answers I would have followed the time-honoured precedent of making a personal statement to the House. In short, my Lords, the answer to the noble Lord's Question is, No.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, is the noble Lord not gravely mistaken in this matter? Should he not reconsider his Answer? Is he aware that I have here detailed cartographical information upon which the invasion was based? Is he aware that the Argentines could not have carried out the invasion without the material provided to them from Government sources? Will he not look again at his answers, which suggested that all that was available to them was tourist maps? Is it not the case that he would do himself greater credit if he were to admit that he made a mistake?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, on 1st December last I understood that the noble Lord's original Question was fuelled by a report by one of the Members of another place who had visited the Falklands late last summer under the auspices of the Ministry of Defence, claiming that a large number of British maps of the Falklands were left behind by the Argentines. The maps referred to by the Member in question have since been identified. It is a small map of the kind used to illustrate booklets—I hope the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, who I see sitting on the Front Bench opposite, will excuse me when I tell him and the House that the map in question is bound into his report, which I obtained from the Library this morning—or, alternatively, which tourists might purchase as a souvenir. Two thousand copies of it were sent to the Falkland Islands Government secretariat in June, 1978. It is possible that the Argentines found some there after the invasion.

As I obviously failed to make clear, large-scale maps of British origin were captured from the Argentine military during the repossession of the islands, but those maps, although clearly taken from a British original, had been reprinted in Argentina. I made the point at the time that this was in breach of copyright. It now transpires that these maps were withdrawn from sale on 5th April last, three days after the invasion, a fact I did not know on 1st December.

Lord Shackleton

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the purpose of asking Questions in your Lordships' House is to elicit information, and that he could have saved himself quite a lot of trouble, and indeed showing some rather unjustified indignation, if he had simply pointed out that these maps to which my noble friend referred were not, strictly speaking, ordnance survey maps? They are the maps of which I have had copies. They are the big 1/50,000 maps, and they have been readily available. They were produced by the Directorate of Overseas Surveys, which has normally worked closely with the Ordnance Survey, and the Ordnance Survey have printed their maps. It is unfortunate that the noble Lord tried to lead the House off on this red herring about tourist maps. I do not know what he means by tourist maps.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I accept that this was a most unfortunate incident from which neither I nor, I do not think, anybody else on 1st December can claim any credit whatsoever. But, on mature reflection—and the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, has given me plenty of time, nearly two months, for mature reflection—I think that the worst charge I can face is that my answers on that occasion were unclear.

The Earl of Selkirk

My Lords, surely Admiralty charts are available to anyone in the world for the safety of shipping?

Lord Skelmersdale

Yes, my Lords, but I still do not think that we are talking about Admiralty charts. We are talking about the land-based maps which were published, as the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, said, and as I said originally, by the Directorate of Overseas Surveys, and were printed by the Ordnance Survey.

Lord Renton

My Lords, are not ordnance survey maps and DOS maps freely available for purchase anywhere in the world unless an embargo has been placed upon them because of hostilities?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I understand (but I am subject to correction on this) that the maps are available only in England and in the Falkland Islands. I do not think they are available anywhere in the world.

Lord Shackleton

My Lords, I do not think we want to spend much more time on this. The noble Lord might have a look at the 1/50,000 maps which were produced by Huntings. It all goes back to the work of the Falkland Islands Dependency survey. Whether or not they are generally on sale, there is no doubt that they are perfectly easy to get hold of. I have a couple of sets. I will let the noble Lord have one if he wants.

Lord Skelmersdale

Yes, my Lords, but I said that as far as I knew they were on sale only in this country and in the Falkland Islands. Whether, as I suspect my noble friend was suggesting, they could be bought in France or anywhere else, as I say, I doubt.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I will seek to place these maps in the Library so that noble Lords can see them and make up their own minds about them? Is he further aware that at long last we seem to have extracted something in the nature of an admission of error from him? Would it not have been rather better if he had done that in the first instance?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, the normal course of events, if a noble Lord is unsatisfied with an Answer he gets from the Government, is to approach the Minister concerned and have a talk with him. The Minister then frequently suggests a meeting with the officials who advised him in the first place. There is no doubt that I would have been perfectly happy on this or any other occasion to follow that procedure.