HL Deb 25 January 1983 vol 438 cc124-6

2.43 p.m.

The Earl of Lauderdale

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government when they expect energy-intensive industries in Scotland to enjoy tariff reliefs comparable with those available in England and Wales since March 1982.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, the energy measures introduced following the March 1982 Budget all applied in Scotland. These included a price freeze for industrial gas contracts and foundry coke prices and the widening of the boiler conversion scheme.

A contracted load management scheme to assist large industrial consumers with electricity demand in excess of six megawatts was also announced. This scheme enables substantial discounts to be given to companies which are willing to reduce their load at short notice. In Scotland nine consumers have taken up this offer, and this is about the same level of take-up as in England and Wales.

The Earl of Lauderdale

My Lords, in thanking my noble friend for not falling back to the protective line of what is commercially sensitive, may I ask whether he is aware that, despite all that he has said, the fact is that the best discounts available to Scottish industry are about 6 per cent., as against up to 20 per cent. in England? Secondly, on the interruptible scheme, to which my noble friend referred, the conditions are much harsher in Scotland than here.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I was given to understand that price discounts in Scotland vary according to the characteristics of the consumer's electricity usage. I understand that the average price discount is about 10 per cent. This is considered as commercially possible, and, indeed, is the average discount. My noble friend and the House will know that the final figure is normally arrived at, especially for the very large users, in the course of negotiations between either the North of Scotland Hydro Board or the South of Scotland Electricity Board and the individual user concerned.

The Earl of Lauderdale

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that further reply, but is he aware that the South of Scotland Electricity Board has a greater margin of unused and spare capacity than comparable areas elsewhere? Therefore, it should have a greater capacity for helping energy-intensive industrial users. Is he aware that his figures are by no means good enough? Discounts are up to 20 per cent. here, and he quoted 10 per cent. in Scotland.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I did not say "up to"; I said "average". I do not know what the average figure is elsewhere, as envisaged by my noble friend, perhaps in England and Wales. I have forgotten what my noble friend's second salvo was. Could he please remind me?

The Earl of Lauderdale

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for giving me a further opportunity. Is he aware that the South of Scotland Electricity Board has a greater amount of spare capacity than comparable regions elsewhere? Therefore, it should be in a better position to help energy-intensive industrial users.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for filling the spare capacity in my brain—at least, in my memory; I do not know in what other departments. I stress again that if any major industrial users feel that they are hard done by or that my noble friend's figures give them room for asking for further or better terms, that is entirely a matter for the South of Scotland Electricity Board and the individual user.

Lord Elystan-Morgan

My Lords, in deciding whether or not these concessions should be made, can the Minister tell the House what consideration is given to the excessively high levels of unemployment, particularly in Wales, and the parlous position of the Welsh economy?

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I cannot give the noble Lord any indication of what the policies would be outside Scotland. I think that probably, broadly, the same parameters apply for deciding or negotiating a price between large industrial users—those users taking in excess of six megawatts as their peak load—and the various generating boards. As the noble Lord will be aware, in Scotland we have two boards. There will be many differing factors—I should have thought in excess of 20—in any particular negotiating case.

The Earl of Lauderdale

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that an unfavourable differential between the Scottish and English electricity arrangements can only be an incentive for Scottish industry to move back to England?

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I hope that the incentives given, and the figures arrived at, are not out of line taking the United Kingdom as a whole. However, if my noble friend has a particular point perhaps he could take it up with the board; but I should certainly be grateful to receive any information that he has.