HL Deb 20 January 1983 vol 437 cc1523-5
Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what response they have made to the request from IATA that key Governments should establish their present position towards observance of filed tariffs made by airlines and whether they agree with IATA that programmes for "market clean-up" cannot be successful without the support of Governments in principle and in practice.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, the Government have made it clear that they fully support the efforts of the airlines, both in IATA and in the Board of Airline Representatives in the United Kingdom, to reach agreement to move back to charging approved fares. Both IATA and BARUK have the Government's support for their current efforts, but the success of "market clean-up" programmes depends on the airlines rather than on Government. We have repeatedly stressed that we must look to the industry to put its own house in order and we are glad that it is now trying to do so.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, is the Minister aware that he has completely misunderstood the Question? Is he further aware that it really reduces one to despair in pursuing the Government in these matters? May I ask him whether he recalls that in the letter which he sent to me this week he said: In their revised form the operating permits will state clearly that one of the conditions of operation is that fares charged shall be approved by the United Kingdom aeronautical authorities"? May I ask the Minister whether, when these operating permits are given and that condition obtains, the Government intend to see that the permits operate and the clause is kept to?

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I must apologise if the noble Baroness believes that I have either misunderstood or have failed to answer the Question. I would stress that that is a matter of opinion in your Lordships' House. But as regards the noble Baroness's second question, I am sure she will be aware that the purpose of inserting tariff clauses into permits is to clarify the legal obligations of the airlines themselves to charge the officially approved fares. As I am sure the noble Baroness has heard from me, and indeed from many others at this Box, the Government are firmly of the opinion that this is a matter for the airline industry itself. We support all the efforts that have been made by the industry and we believe the noble Baroness will agree that there is increasing success.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, I do not know whether the Minister is being obtuse or whether I am, but we do not seem to be making any progress at all. May I ask him whether he is aware that what he has said, so far as supporting the airlines is concerned, is not worth the time that he has given to it? I am asking him whether, as IATA has asked the Government, if these permits are given to airlines the Government will check that they are abided by.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, the answer that I gave may not be worth a great deal so far as the noble Baroness is concerned, but I would stress to her, and to your Lordships, that it happens to be the truth and is definitely laid down. So far as the keeping of the permits is concerned, this depends upon bringing a case to the courts and, as I and others have repeatedly told the noble Baroness, there is a problem in bringing these cases to the courts and, above all, in the courts dealing with such cases between—I would stress this to the noble Baroness—a willing buyer and a willing seller.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, if the House will permit me, is the Minister aware that I am not wanting anything brought to the courts? I am simply asking him whether, when these permits are given to airlines and they have a clause in them saying that the fares must be observed, the Government will take steps to see that the fares are observed; and, if not, whether they will withdraw the permits.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, the first steps which the Government would take would be legal steps—and those are the ones that I mentioned—in the courts. Before the Government withdrew a permit that would be a matter for discussion between the Government authorities and the airlines, and there might be more than one of them.

Lord Beswick

My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord is being entirely right or fair about this. Is there not an obligation on the national organisation here, when they give a licence on certain terms, to see that those terms are carried out? Is not a difficulty here that, if the terms are enforced in this country and not in other countries, you are putting British airline operators at a disadvantage in the international market? That is the real problem. Instead of all this other nonsense, could not the Minister say that the Government will make an effort to get an agreement among other Governments to enforce the conditions under which licences are granted?

Lord Lyell

My Lords, of course the Government will seek to obtain agreement with other Governments. We are very grateful to the noble Lord for pointing out that enforcement in this country could be harmful to British airlines.

Lord Monson

My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that an earlier Conservative Administration abolished retail price maintenance on most consumer goods, to the great benefit of almost everybody, and therefore that it would be a retrograde, if not an illogical step, for the present Conservative Administration to enforce retail price maintenance on airline travel?

Lord Lyell

My Lords, as I am sure the noble Lord will be aware, there are international agreements between the airlines themselves as part of that great industry, and it is not for the Government to intervene in agreements entered into between the airlines.

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