HL Deb 19 January 1983 vol 437 cc1411-3

2.50 p.m.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, having regard to their statement that the problems encountered as the result of the privatisation of refuse collection in Wandsworth have been exaggerated and that they are not aware of substantial allegations of bribery, they have noted that the Wandsworth Borough Council has urged the public in advertisements in the local papers to stop acceding to demands for payment and that traders who have obeyed this instruction have failed to get their rubbish collected, and whether they will urge Wandsworth to abandon privatisation in the interests of public health and municipal integrity.

The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Bellwin)

My Lords, I am informed that Wandsworth Borough Council, whose responsibility this is, have investigated the allegations of bribery made in the press and have found them to be wholly unsubstantiated. On learning of these allegations, and at the same time as they were published, the council issued a reminder notice, aimed primarily at traders, making it char that there is no need to make payments to the contractor's employees and that if there should be any such approaches, they should be reported to them for investigation.

We have not the slightest intention of abandoning our policy of encouraging local authorities to examine the scope for achieving value for money through contracting out public services. Around the country, real benefits of improved efficiency and economy are being shown to be available in this way.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether or not he is aware that corruption is now becoming a way of life through the privatisation of refuse collection in Wandsworth? May I also ask him whether he is aware that traders have reported under their own names in the local paper that they are paying sums ranging from £1 to £12 a week to have their rubbish collected? Is the noble Lord further aware that one trader who refused to pay any money has not had his rubbish collected for 17 weeks and that he has complained bitterly, since he himself is a tenant of Grand Met, the private firm which is running the refuse collecting organisation? In all these circumstances, will the noble Lord not ask Wandsworth Borough Council to have another look at the matter and not to allow ideological questions to overcome their—

Several noble Lords

Order!

Lord Jenkins of Putney

It is an ideological matter. It is a belief in privatisation.

Several noble Lords

Order!

Lord Jenkins of Putney

Let me just finish.

Several noble Lords

Order!

Lord Jenkins of Putney

Will the noble Lord not therefore have a word with the Wandsworth Borough Council about the matter?

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, the noble Lord makes really outrageous allegations which all the inquiries I have undertaken do not substantiate at all. If the noble Lord has specific cases and names which he wishes to bring to my attention, he knows that he has the opportunity to do so and I trust that he will do so. In the meantime, I certainly do not accept that there is widespread corruption where there is contracting out. That is a very unfortunate expression for the noble Lord to use.

Lord Renton

My Lords, if a trader has been aggrieved, as alleged, is not his best solution to go and see his representative on the district council or, if he seriously thinks that there has been a corrupt practice, to report the matter to the police?

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, I am sure that my noble friend has made a quite proper suggestion.

Lord Leatherland

My Lords, has it not always been the case that trade refuse put out for collection by traders has to be paid for? I ask this question as a former chief cost accountant of the Birmingham Corporation Refuse Disposal Department.

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, I think I can best help the noble Lord by pointing out to him that trade refuse collected under the contract which the local authority has with the company concerned is now costing the traders 30 per cent. less than they were paying under the previous arrangement.

Baroness Birk

My Lords, while accepting the Government's view on privatisation, would not the Minister agree that, even if there is a saving on the rates, this should not be at the expense of efficiency in collecting the refuse? If people are being almost forced to pay in order to get their rubbish collected, this is not an efficient way of running a refuse collection service.

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, there is nothing special about this arrangement. The traders were paying before. What I am saying and am reporting is that they are now paying 30 per cent. less than they were paying before. What I would regard as equally important, if not more important, is that the reports coming to me from the council—they will, I am sure, justify this, if challenged—suggest that the general standard of service has improved, as well as there being a great saving in cost.

Baroness Trumpington

My Lords, would my noble friend agree that enough rubbish has been talked about rubbish?

Lord Bellwin

Gladly, my Lords.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, as he suggests, I shall send him details of the specific cases? Perhaps we may leave it at that.