Student Grants (Hansard, 2 February 1983)

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, the Government are at present considering the possibility of changing from a system of student support based wholly on grants to one involving a mixture of grants and loans. There are many complex issues to be looked at, and no decisions have yet been taken.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that these proposals could create severe difficulties for many of our young people in getting to university, which means to say that the proposition could very well limit access to higher education? Ought there not to be full discussions before anything like this is implemented?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I think I made it quite clear in my original Answer that this is not a proposition. I repeat that the Government are at present considering the possibility of changing. I do not think that is a proposition. Obviously, when the time comes—that is, if the time comes—there will have to be innumerable consultations; but the Government have not committed themselves to this in any way so far.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that because of the statements which have emanated from the DES and, indeed, from the Secretary of State himself, there is some consternation, not only among the 300,000-odd students and their parents but among all those who are interested in education? Ought not the Government to come clean and state precisely what they have in mind, so that there can be proper consultations and a proper examination of a proposal which is giving great concern right through the whole fabric of higher education?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I really cannot go on repeating that the Government have not yet come to any definite conclusion. When the Government themselves make up their minds what they are going to do, that will be the proper time for consulting everybody.

§ Lord Orr-Ewing
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that a number of people, having observed a system of grants and loans working admirably in other free Western countries, think the Government are absolutely right to consider this most seriously and most carefully, and to have consultations on the issue?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I am very grateful for those remarks from my noble friend. There will obviously be consultations, and I imagine that some people will be in favour and others violently opposed.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether the Waldegrave plan, which was referred to in the educational press at the beginning of last month with a great many details about what was to be done with the grants system—some people would benefit, the minimum grant would be abolished, and so on—is being seriously considered by the Government, or are they going to come up with some quite different plan? Or was the Parliamentary Under-Secretary talking very freely at that moment?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords. I can only repeat once more that we are considering the possibility of a change, but the details have not yet been agreed or thought out in any way.

§ Lord Kennet
My Lords, this is a request for information. Did the House hear the noble Earl aright a moment ago when he said: When the Government have made up their mind what they want to do, that will be the time for consultation'"?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I apologise. I should have said "if the Government decide", rather than "when".

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that many of us would regard this as putting the clock back 50 years, to where it was before the war? Would he not agree that this, together with the abandonment of the Robbins criteria, which the Government are proposing this year, would mean that higher education will become an élitist privilege, as it used to be?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I think that is a matter of opinion. The noble Lord is entitled to 805 express his opinion, but I do not think it is in the shape of a question.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, may I say that I am grateful to the noble Earl for the reply he has given, particularly as he has said that everybody will be consulted. Would he please give the House an assurance that representatives of the National Union of Students will be included, because, as I understand it, they look upon the issue as being one of saving money, and they have proposals which need not be of the same type as the Government's but which nevertheless could save money, and which would be acceptable to the NUS?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I cannot give a categorical promise, but I imagine they would be consulted.

§ Lord Kilmarnock
My Lords, would the Government undertake to issue a White Paper before taking any action? Further, could the noble Earl reassure us that they would not make a pre-emptive strike prior to full consultation?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I am absolutely sure that the Government are going to consult very widely on this.

§ Lord Alexander of Potterhill
My Lords, is it not a fact that the arrangements for students' grants in this country are probably the most generous in the whole of the Western world? Is it not also a fact that many European countries operate a system of a combination of grants and loans which has operated fairly satisfactorily for very long periods of time, and that certainly the arrangements here are very much more favourable than those in the United States?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Alexander, for what he has said. This is one of the reasons why the Government are considering these possibilities.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, if the noble Earl is now saying that the Government are considering the possibilities of deciding between grants and loans, will he assure the House that the Government will look very carefully at the American model? Because a number of his noble friends and Members on the Cross-Benches are apparently unaware of the fact that those of us who have taught in the United States are appalled by the number of students who have to fall out because they cannot afford to keep up their loan payments.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I am quite certain the Government are looking into measures which are used in various parts of the world.