Judiciary and Executive: Independence (Hansard, 21 December 1983)

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Lord Chancellor (Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone)
My Lords, I apologise to your Lordships for the state of my voice. The answer to the noble Lord's Question is: Yes.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, although I am very grateful to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor for his reply, may I ask him whether he is aware that there are reports in many sectors of the British media that the Government have savaged this vital principle and that the name of the Master of the Rolls has been involved? Is the noble and learned Lord aware that this is considered to be an extremely serious situation? Is he further aware that the ripples of consternation are not limited to the field of industrial relations?

§ The Lord Chancellor
My Lords, I do not think that that will quite do. The Government have not savaged anything—not even the noble Lord!

§ The Earl of Lauderdale
My Lords, will my noble and learned friend not agree that the great guarantee of 728 the independence of the Judiciary rests in the powers of your Lordships' House to veto the dismissal of any judge at any time?

§ The Lord Chancellor
My Lords, I am sorry; I did not hear.

§ The Earl of Lauderdale
My Lords, would my noble and learned friend agree that the great defence and protection of the independence of the Judiciary rests with the power possessed by your Lordships' House to veto the dismissal of any judge at any time?

§ The Lord Chancellor
My Lords, that is not the only defence. This would of course apply to the higher Judiciary, where a Resolution of both Houses is required. But the independence of the Judiciary applies right down the scale to the magistrates in the humblest petty sessional court. There, I think I must say, I remain the bastion of liberty.

§ Lord Elwyn-Jones
My Lords, while maintenance of the independence of the Judiciary is obviously of vital importance, is it not also important that Ministers and civil servants should take great care not to involve the judges in political matters?

§ The Lord Chancellor
Yes, my Lords. An independent and loyal Civil Service is also part of our constitution, and I think that the loyalty of a civil servant in this particular case was somewhat lacking and has been met with dismissal.

§ Lord Hale
My Lords, is the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack not aware that in The Times this morning there is a specific paragraph or two dealing with discussions between the Master of the Rolls and the Minister concerned with matters of employment, and that the subject raised by The Times is the question a number of people are wondering about, as to how far things are going along this road and whether, for all practical purposes, an involvement of the Judiciary is already substantial?

§ The Lord Chancellor
My Lords, the only thing of which I am aware is that there was a perfectly innocent conversation between a newly-appointed civil servant, who was not the civil servant I referred to a moment ago, and the Master of the Rolls, in which, following the practice which I think has been the practice of successive Governments, he sought to inform himself of matters which were within the Master of the Rolls' own experience, and which the Master of the Rolls himself had largely dealt with in the course of a public lecture.

§ Lord Hooson
My Lords, would the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor think that the independence of the Judiciary is inevitably affected by communication between the Executive and the Judiciary? When the Executive seeks to learn of the experience of the Judiciary in dealing with certain matters, is there a normal means of communication, or is it left to informal discussion?

§ The Lord Chancellor
My Lords. I think there are both. I have myself taken the opportunity of 729 emphasising the desirability of, apart from the Home Office, informing the Lord Chancellor when these things take place. Sometimes he is capable of giving useful advice.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor aware that I am well used to being savaged by Conservative Governments, and that I am almost immune now to anything they can do because I have survived for so long? The principle that I raised in my Question is fundamental, would the noble and learned Lord not agree? The last reply that he gave, that someone did consult with the Master of the Rolls, gives reason for apprehension, but perhaps he has contributed this morning to relieving that grave apprehension that existed, for which I am sure the House and indeed the country will be grateful to him.

§ The Lord Chancellor
My Lords, I think that is pretty handsome. Thank you very much.

§ The Earl of Lauderdale
My Lords, would my noble and learned friend not agree, going back to the independence of the Judiciary and the protection of it afforded by this House's power of veto, that it was proposed by the party opposite in the last two elections that the power of veto should be abolished?

§ The Lord Chancellor
My Lords, I think that we are straying a little far from the original Question, but I am grateful to my noble friend for pointing that out.

The Lord Bishop of Norwich
My Lords, would the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack feel that the happy independence of the Bench of Bishops and the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack continues despite cut and thrust in this House? And how much we wish the noble and learned Lord a very happy Christmas?

§ The Lord Chancellor
My Lords, I should like to reciprocate the good wishes of the right reverend Prelate.

Lord Morris
My Lords, would my noble and learned friend agree that anybody who seeks free legal advice always does so at his peril?

§ The Lord Chancellor
My Lords, the only legal adviser of Her Majesty's Government is the Attorney-General or, I should have said, the four Law Officers.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, may I briefly assure the Lord Chancellor that, when I expressed my deep appreciation of his status, standing and assistance, that did not mean, in so far as he admitted that there had been some perhaps minor breach, that this House and indeed people in this country will not nevertheless continue this issue until it is finally cleared up in the interests of our great constitution.

§ The Lord Chancellor
My Lords, the noble Lord can discover mares' nests wherever he wants.