Prisons: Standards (Hansard, 13 December 1983)

Lord Hunt
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Elton)
My Lords, my right honourable and learned friend wishes to proceed with this matter in the context of his new policies for improving the amount and quality of prison accommodation. He proposes to begin by publishing next year an account of the standards used in building new establishments.

Lord Hunt
My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord the Minister for his Answer, may I ask whether he recalls that 18 months ago—on 22nd June last year—during the Committee stage of the Criminal Justice Bill, he informed the House that his right honourable friend the Home Secretary had asked the prison department to prepare a draft code of standards as a basis for discussion; and that he anticipated it would be published in the currency of this year—in 1983? Does the Minister further recall that his honourable friend Sir Patrick Mayhew in another place, in replying to a Written Question by Mr. Kilroy-Silk, also anticipated that the code of standards would be available in 1983? Is it not high time that your Lordships' House should have an opportunity to see that document and to approve it, in view of the scandalous conditions which persist in many of our prisons, as illustrated by a recent BBC film on conditions in Brixton?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I recall the exchanges in this House quite clearly, and I am aware of the exchanges in another place. We have decided that the best way to proceed is the one I have described; but because we have changed the method, it will take a little longer than intended. We intend to publish the exact details of what we are now doing, and the noble Lord's views on those will be welcome.

§ Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge
My Lords, is the noble Lord the Minister aware that it is generally thought by people who are interested in these affairs that the present standards as maintained in Her Majesty's prisons are well below the standards 96 demanded in the European Community, and therefore that any delay is really not acceptable? This sounds far too slow a method of progress.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, what makes a difference is money and activity. We are launching the biggest prison improvement and building programmme of any Government this century. We are reducing the length of time it takes to create a new prison by up to 18 months. These factors will alleviate the conditions in prisons. That does not mean that I do not think the standards are important or that the views of the noble Lords should not be known as soon as they are available.

§ Baroness Sharples
My Lords, can my noble friend assure the House that thought will be given to the wives and children when they visit prisoners?

§ Lord Elton
Yes, my Lords. Every prison has a visitors' complex and our experience with the old prisons gives us a clear indication of the mistakes to avoid in the new prisons.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, can the noble Lord the Minister confirm, as he told me in a recent answer to a letter about the floor area of cells in dispersal prisons, that the floor area has in fact been reduced in prisons constructed most recently, and that there was no reason for this in terms of the standards which prisoners should enjoy? Will the Minister also say what he considers should be the minimum temperature which is experienced by prisoners in the dispersal system, and why he recently suggested to me in a letter that if prisoners did not like the cold in the strip cells at Parkhurst they should put on more clothes?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I cannot agree with the noble Lord's first two allegations. I should like to reflect on what it is that he is implying. I am not clear about that, but the noble Lord seems to be saying that the standards of provision we now have in view are lower than those we have had in the past; and that is not so. As to the temperature and other details, they will be for discussion later when the standards are published. As to the individual case mentioned by the noble Lord, it seemed to me sensible that as the prisoner in question had clothing available, if he thought the cell was too cold he might have worn it.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, does the noble Lord the Minister realise that the anxiety of this House on all sides exists because of the lamentably low standards that at present exist? Does he remember not only the discussion at Committee stage—as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, reminded him—but also the resistance to an amendment regarding standards which was answered by the promised publication of the standards? Lastly, may I ask the Minister whether he does not realise that the excuse given—namely, that of expense—may apply to the application of standards, but does not apply to the publication of those standards with reasons being given why they cannot be implemented at once? Will the Minister therefore try to expedite the matter?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I am not in the business of making excuses. I am acutely aware of what conditions are like in prisons because I visit a great many of them. I do not need your Lordships' urging to realise that this is a serious, important, and, in many cases, a tragic position in which we find ourselves. Perhaps I ought to remind your Lordships of the very large programme we have now initiated at a time of financial stringency, when other departments are cutting back, to rectify the situation in terms both of physical provision and of manpower. Anything I can do towards expedition I will do.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, may I just ask the noble Lord the Minister whether, with his usual courtesy, he will answer my last question: why must there be any delay in the publication of what the standards should be? One would accept thereafter the reason for not implementing those standards for some time.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, for reminding me of his last supplementary question. The material from which we have decided to draw the publication is voluminous and complex and will have to be reduced to manageable terms for the public. I had the same reservations as the noble Lord when I found that we could not publish as soon as I wished. I can assure him that it will be done with the greatest despatch at my command.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, the noble Lord will recall that I recently asked him a question about Holloway and he very courteously offered to have private discussions about this, which I hope to take up at a suitable time. May I ask the noble Lord one question about Holloway? Is he aware that, as I understand it, padded cells are not allowed to be used in Holloway Prison? Can he explain why that is, particularly in view of the fact that the evidence seems to suggest that a number of prisoners in Holloway have damaged themselves because of the lack of protection on the walls?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I do not wish to seem in any way discourteous or unfriendly to the noble Lord, but the Question is about the state of progress towards publishing a code of standards for prisons. The noble Lord obviously has particular cases in mind. I wonder if we could discuss this point at the same time?

Lord Hunt
My Lords, would the noble Lord accept that I understand that he is personally imbued with this sense of urgency which has been expressed from all sides of your Lordships' House? Would he further accept that I acknowledge that this is not a sin of omission of this particular Government, but that successive Governments over many years have failed to conform to the minimum standard rules laid down in the United Nations in 1955 and by the Council of Europe in 1973? In the light of that, would he bear in mind the additional urgency and urging that have been imparted to him during this exchange that we should expedite the action to conform with those two sets of rules, to both of which we are signatories?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, of course I will take away the added sense of urgency the noble Lord wishes to 98 impart. I should say that there are differences between European SMRs and those that we propose, in that ours will be rather more precise.