HL Deb 06 December 1983 vol 445 cc988-9

2.40 p.m.

The Earl of Kinnoull

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what controls are there to prevent the further plundering for sand and ballast of the Goodwin Sands in the English Channel; and what investigations have been made on such action affecting local fishing and to beaches.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, the sand and gravel of the Goodwins is Crown property, managed by the Crown Estate Commissioners who can grant licences to dredge it. Licence applications are very carefully scrutinised to ensure that there would be no significant adverse effects on other interests. Licences are not granted if dredging would increase the risk of coast erosion. Local fishing interests have been consulted about investigations into the effects of dredging on the Goodwins.

The Earl of Kinnoull

My Lords, may I thank my noble friend for his reply. Does he recognise that the Goodwin Sands are not just a lump of cheap, convenient ballast and sand but that, to start off with, they are a natural museum of maritime wrecks; that they are a valuable fish breeding ground and also a natural protection against coast erosion; and that these are three important points that he has not mentioned?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I agree with all of the points made by my noble friend, especially on the historical importance of the Goodwins. However, I should tell the House that in the current application only 0.15 per cent. of the Goodwins is likely to be extracted. As I am sure my noble friend knows, the Goodwins are formed by a continuing process so that it will not be very many years before that 0.15 per cent. is replaced.

Lord John-Mackie

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that if there is any danger—and it appears from what I have heard that there is a danger, particularly to fishing rights; although I am not so sure about the coast erosion—would it not be much better to move a slag heap down the main road from the mines at Snowdown? This would be much cheaper, I should think, than going to the Goodwins and dredging.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, regretfully, although I am all for using colliery spoil, the NCB have advised that it would not be suitable in this particular case for the East Docks extension of the Dover Docks. As far as both coast erosion and fisheries are concerned, the Minister of Agriculture has advised that the impact of the proposed dredging on fisheries is unlikely to be significant; and the hydraulics research station have advised that the proposed dredging will not affect the adjacent shoreline.

Viscount St. Davids

My Lords, will the noble Lord agree that the Goodwin Sands are being added to and have been added to throughout the last few millenia and that, therefore, if we wish to maintain the status quo on the fisheries and the coast it is necessary to keep up a certain level of removal otherwise the sands will naturally change their present status?

Lord Skelmersdale

Yes, my Lords. As I have said, the Goodwins are in state of flux and they will continue to be so as long as we have those particular tidal movements in that particular part of our coastline.

The Earl of Kinnoull

My Lords, will my noble friend confirm that the Crown Estate Commissioners have applied for a licence to last for 13 years covering three million cubic metres, which is a considerable amount, and that so far over the past 10 years only a quarter of a million cubic metres have been extracted?

Lord Skelmersdale

Yes, my Lords, I confirm that this is so. Of course, 13 years is a very long period and the extraction will be done under controlled conditions. The scientific advice that I have been given is that there will be no deleterious effects.

Lord John-Mackie

My Lords, may I ask who actually gives the authority for this dredging?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, there is what is known as a Government view, which is a consensus among the various departments involved: that is to say, the Department of Agriculture, and in this case the Minister of Agriculture, and the local planning authorities.

The Earl of Kinnoull

My Lords, may I ask my noble friend a final question: whether the local fishermen of Deal did not object? My noble friend intimated to the House that the local fishermen have no view particularly.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, they were consulted; and, as I understand it, having been consulted they were unable to show that there would be a substantial reduction in the crabs or the sole which were indigenous, or in other fish, on the Goodwins. Equally, as I understand it, they are not pursuing their unhappiness.