Hyde Park Corner: Traffic Lights (Hansard, 11 April 1983)

§ Lord Orr-Ewing
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Lucas of Chilworth
My Lords, I understand that the Greater London Council originally estimated the cost of this experiment at £75,000. Additional works have been undertaken, but the cost of these is not yet known. The experiment is part of a programme of minor schemes accepted by the Department of Transport as being eligible for transport supplementary grant purposes. However, it is for the Greater London Council to decide how that block grant is allocated between its many eligible schemes.

§ Lord Orr-Ewing
My Lords, in thanking my noble friend for that reply, may I ask whether he is aware that no one would greatly resent the expenditure—though it is likely to be more than double the figure when the final scheme is installed, and when maintenance is allowed for—if in fact there were any improvement in traffic flow? Has my noble friend 8 observed that when the amount of traffic is light, or at a medium volume, the flow is quite satisfactory, as it was before the lights were installed, but that at peak hours in mornings and evenings it is quite chaotic? Will my noble friend draw the attention of the GLC to the fact that at all hours during the day time, and often in the evenings as well, Grosvenor Crescent, which constitutes a main feed into the circular system at Hyde Park Corner, is now choked the whole Way back into Belgrave Square?

§ Lord Lucas of Chilworth
My Lords, I understand from both the police and the GLC authorities that since the installation on 27th March of the additional traffic lights there has been some improvement in the traffic flow. Additionally, I can tell my noble friend that, as we return from post-Easter holiday traffic, the monitoring will be continued, and a certain amount of fine tuning has to be undertaken, in particular in relation to the light sequences. However, I should remind my noble friend that the primary concern of the Greater London Council in putting this traffic management scheme into operation was to reduce the excessive number of accidents that have taken place in the area in the last few years.

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he has any break-down of the accident figures, showing the time that they took place and whether they involved people or vehicles? Secondly, may I ask what happens to the lights, fine tuned or not, when the Household Cavalry crosses Hyde Park Corner?

§ Lord Lucas of Chilworth
My Lords, in reply to my noble friend's last supplementary question, I can tell her that the lights remain operative, whether the horses are crossing or standing still. With regard to the accidents, there have been a number involving personal injury. The most important accident figures for 1982 comprised 10 involving pedal cyclists, 13 involving people in motor cars, and 10 involving people in PSVs. In all, in 1982 there were 56 personal injury accidents; in 1981 there were 62, and in 1980 there were 48.

§ Lord Derwent
My Lords, is it not natural that there are fewer accidents when all the traffic is standing still and vehicles are not running into each other? Is not one of the unfortunate results of the installation of the lights that more police have to be employed during the rush hours sorting out the traffic blocks?

§ Lord Lucas of Chilworth
My Lords, I cannot confirm whether or not more police are employed at this stage. Certainly I can tell my noble friend that until such time as the system has been accepted by the motorist—it takes some considerable time for motorists to accept any change in traffic movements—and until such time as the fine tuning has been accomplished, there may well be people who perceive congestion when there may in fact be none. I have little doubt that as the system gets under way and becomes accepted by motorists the blockages of which he speaks will be minimised.

§ Lord Glenkinglas
My Lords, I use this route two or three time every day. Is my noble friend suggesting that what motorists have to do to improve it is to avoid it?

§ Lord Lucas of Chilworth
No, my Lords.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, is it not a fact that prior to this experiment most sensible motorists wished to avoid Hyde Park Corner? Has not the department stated that the matter is to be monitored? Would it not therefore be better to wait until the monitoring is completed? Should not the Metropolitan Police and the Greater London Council be congratulated for trying to deal with trouble spots? Is it not the case that only time will tell?

§ Lord Lucas of Chilworth
My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, for that intervention. He is absolutely right. If we take his advice and examine this gyratory system in three or four months' time we shall be better able to make a more sensible judgment than at a time only two or three weeks after it has been fully in operation.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that when the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, raised this matter in the House he was correct? There was almost total chaos. The reason, it would appear, is that the scheme was introduced piecemeal and by instalments. It seemed for some time that both the police and motorists were completely at a loss over what was happening. As the scheme has developed and is now reaching fruition, the position seems to be improving dramatically.

§ Lord Lucas of Chilworth
My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Molloy. He is right. I replied first to my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter on 21st March. Since that time the additional lights have been brought into operation. That was on 27th March. The GLC observers, the police and officials from my department who have made observations report in a manner that suggests that the scheme is more likely to be profitable and practical than otherwise.

§ Lord Annan
My Lords, while paying tribute to the nerves of steel that the noble Lord, Lord Orr-Ewing, is known to possess and to a skill in manoeuvring his car that rivals that of Mr. Lester Piggott and Mr. Willie Carson on the racecourse, will he not accept that some noble Lords believe that the scheme has been extremely beneficial to their nervous system and that there has been an improvement? Will he also accept that now that there are three sets of traffic lights working at Hyde Park Corner there has been a marked improvement in bumping and boring on that particular racecourse?

§ Lord Lucas of Chilworth
My Lords, I am sure that the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Annan, will be taken to heart by those who support the scheme. I can only repeat that time will tell. There has been very little time for assessment to date.

§ Lord Orr-Ewing
My Lords, will my noble friend give an assurance that thorough and scientific analysis 10 took place before the lights were installed and will continue to take place during the period of the experiment so that adjustments can be made and improvements effected? Will he not agree that the matter should not be left as it is, when there are clearly some areas where traffic was flowing perfectly satisfactorily before the lights were installed which are now very badly affected?

§ Lord Lucas of Chilworth
My Lords, I can give my noble friend that assurance. Engineers from the Greater London Council traffic department are monitoring the scheme in a proper and acceptable manner. Adjustments to the system will be made as they become necessary. This will not be left to chance.

§ Lord Leatherland
My Lords, will the noble Lord simplify one of his statements? He said that at Hyde Park Corner there were 13 PSDs. What is a PSD?

§ Lord Lucas of Chilworth
My Lords, I stated that among the numbers of accidents listed there were 10 personal injury accidents concerning passenger service vehicles—PSVs.