§ Baroness Burton of CoventryMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the necessity to take all possible measures to deal with the problem of ticket discounting, they will make a statement on the progress made by the Department of Trade in conjunction with the Civil Aviation Authority concerning the issue of air transport licences: whether all air licences now issued contain a tariff clause requiring the airline to abide by the officially approved fares for the route licensed and when such a tariff clause was introduced.
§ Lord LyellMy Lords, I believe that the noble Baroness's Question is primarily concerned with operating permits which are issued by the Department of Trade to foreign airlines serving the United Kingdom, rather than licences which are issued by the Civil Aviation Authority to United Kingdom Airlines. Licences invariably include a requirement to charge only officially approved fares, and so do most permits. Since 1979 the Department of Trade has been including a similar requirement in permits issued to foreign airlines as and when they come up for renewal.
§ Baroness Burton of CoventryMy Lords, can the Minister say how frequently permits come up for renewal? Is this a regular period, or not? Secondly, can he say whether such clauses are now inserted in the operating permits of most European airlines and all the United States carriers?
§ Lord LyellMy Lords, I understand that most of the permits—I believe 95 per cent. of them—come up for examination and, I believe the technical word is, "amendment" at least once every 12 months. Some do not. As regards the noble Baroness's second question, I am afraid that I cannot give her precise details of the United States airlines or the European airlines in these special circumstances. If I may ascertain details as far as the European and United States airlines are concerned for these specially permitted routes, perhaps I may write to the noble Baroness with details of these specific airlines.
§ Baroness Burton of CoventryI would be most grateful, my Lords. May I ask the Minister, if these permits come up roughly once every 12 months, what is the reason for a clause not being inserted? Is it because the Government do not wish to do so, or because the airline concerned is in a position not to accept it? I have one further question. If this clause has been in the permits until now, has the Department of Trade taken no action against airlines which have broken the clause?
§ Lord LyellMy Lords, the answer to the noble Baroness's first question is a double negative—"no" and "no". The answer to her second question is that it is a very difficult legal point as to against whom the legal action should be taken. Indeed, this has been stressed by my noble friends who have answered this question during the lifetime of this Government. I am sure the noble Baroness and your Lordships will be aware that the Government will not rule out any legal action, but I am sure that the noble Baroness, and the airlines, will accept that it is no solution to the problem raised by the noble Baroness.
Baroness Burton of Coventry: My Lords, if the House will permit me, can the Minister say what is the use of having a clause inserted in operational permits for airlines if the clause is not kept and the Government take no notice of it? Does the Minister recall that we have had long exchanges in the House, through the kindness of the House, about the legislation on discounted tickets which has gone on for years and for which evidence has been submitted? Does he further recall that the Government have said on frequent occasions that they have no intention of either withdrawing the legislation or acting upon it?
§ Lord LyellMy Lords, I hope that the noble Baroness will accept that the answer to her last question is very much the same as I am afraid I had to give in answer to her second supplementary question, and the same as my noble friend the Minister and previous spokesmen on this area have given to the noble Baroness in past years. It is very difficult to take the legal action even should the Government wish to do so. I stress to the noble Baroness, and the House, that this entire matter of discounted air fares is a commercial decision and it is one for the airlines to settle themselves.
§ Lord Boyd-CarpenterMy Lords, if a condition in a permit or a licence is broken, is it not perfectly simple to cancel or withdraw the permit or licence?
§ Lord LyellNot entirely, my Lords, since it is primarily a matter for the airlines themselves. The Government have very much a supervisory function in this area. Perhaps I may write to my noble friend with specific details.
§ The Earl of OnslowMy Lords, if my noble friend says that it is difficult to find out who is legally responsible for discounting tickets, does this not make the permit totally valueless? Either there is someone who can answer for the conditions of the licence or there is not. For the Government to say that they cannot find someone responsible is very odd.
§ Lord LyellMy Lords, I hope that I did not say that nobody was responsible. I hope that I can clarify the point in my noble friend's mind and in the minds of your Lordships. It is particularly difficult to find a target, if that is the word for a non-legal person to use. It is particularly difficult to enforce these legal obligations. I stress that the legal obligations found in permits issued by the Civil Aviation Authority are to be found in paragraph 80 of the Air Navigation Order 1980.
§ Baroness Burton of CoventryMy Lords, perhaps I am being stupid, but can the Minister clarify the point for me? Did I understand him to say, in effect, to the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, that if an airline breaks the clause in its agreement it is not possible for the Civil Aviation Authority to withdraw the agreement it has given to the airline, and that presumably it is up to the airline itself to go the CAA and say that it does not want the agreement any longer?
§ Lord LyellMy Lords, it is often very difficult to obtain evidence that the airline has broken an agreement in the permit. That, mainly, is the problem. Secondly, it is very difficult to take legal action and to enforce these obligations.
§ Lord Elwyn-JonesMy Lords, is it a case of power without responsibility or responsibility without power?
§ Lord LyellMy Lords, I would have to seek guidance as to untying the Elwyn-Jones' knot. Perhaps I might take guidance on that and possibly write to the noble and learned Lord.