§ 3.10 p.m.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware of the joint statement by the Soviet Peace Committee and the World Disarmament Campaign proposing among other things a move towards the dismantling of both the Warsaw Pact and NATO, the establishment of nuclear weapon free zones and the prohibition of chemical biological and radiological weapons; and whether they welcome this development.
§ Lord SkelmersdaleMy Lords, the Government are aware of this statement, which contains a number of well-worn Soviet proposals. My right honourable friend the Minister of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Hurd) met members of the British delegation on 11th March and discussed their visit to the Soviet Union. We hope that the proclaimed interest of the Soviet Union in peace will be reflected in a constructive response to the fresh proposals made by the West for reductions in conventional and nuclear forces.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyYes, my Lords, but may I ask the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, two further questions. First, is it not the case that the Soviet Peace Committee seldom does or says anything that is not approved by the Soviet Government and therefore that anything in a statement entered into by the Soviet Peace Committee and the World Disarmament Campaign may be taken as an official statement by the Soviet Government, and will the British Government look at it in that light? Secondly, in a Written Answer that the noble Lord was kind enough to give me he said that the Government expected to have an opportunity in the near future to make known to the Russians the Government's views on their initiatives for a nuclear freeze and for a comprehensive Test Ban Treaty. Is the noble Lord now in a position to say what those views are?
§ Lord SkelmersdaleMy Lords, with regard to the noble Lord's second supplementary question, these views are still under discussion and I am not yet in a position to give the noble Lord the information he wants. As far as the Soviet Peace Committee is concerned, I agree with the noble Lord that it is a loose organ of the state but I cannot draw from that the same conclusions that he does because there are other peace movements which are under what I can only describe as subjection in the Soviet Union at the moment. For example, the noble Lord will know well the case of Mr. Sakharov, whose dissenting views are certainly not tolerated. There is also the fact mentioned by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Norwich in his letter to The Times today—and I quote:
The 15 brave Russians who tried to form an equivalent of a CND movement in Moscow earlier this year were immediately imprisoned".So I cannot subscribe to the theory that the views of the Soviet Peace Committee represent the views of the Russian people, although on occasions they may well represent the views of the state.
§ Lord RentonMy Lords, while welcoming my noble friend's statement, may I ask him whether it is intended to impress upon the Soviet Government that success in this matter depends upon multilateral disarmament and bona fide reciprocity?
§ Lord SkelmersdaleYes, my Lords, most certainly that is the intention of Her Majesty's Government; and further, we are absolutely determined to seek an agreement on the very difficult problem of verification, which will still take a long time to clear up, I am afraid.
Viscount St. DavidsMy Lords, would not the great and noble words of the Soviet Union be of infinite value if only they bore some relation to what they do?
§ Lord SkelmersdaleMy Lords, I have a lot of sympathy with that view, because I noticed that, in Mr. Gromyko's recent speech to the United Nations, he said:
The urge to give orders to other countries and to dominate the world must not be allowed to overshadow the experience of the past or muffle the voice of reason".From that noble Lords can draw their own conclusion, as I have.
§ Lord BrockwayMy Lords, the Minister has referred to proposals of the Soviet Government being in this document. Is he aware that it was not a device of the Soviet Peace Committee? Is he aware that I proposed it and I drafted the terms of the agreement with only slight amendments, and that the agreement proposes endorsement of the recommendations of the United Nations Special Assembly four years ago and makes a series of progressive proposals ending with the demilitarisation of both the Warsaw Pact and NATO? Are not those proposals worthy of the support of the Government?
§ Lord SkelmersdaleMy Lords, I was not aware of the noble Lord's involvement in all this, although of course I did know that he was a member of the delegation to the Soviet Peace Committee. However, I accept that there is good reason for looking at the proposals very carefully. I hope that some progress can be made on at least some parts of them. But I quite definitely do not think that the inference that all is sweetness and light can be drawn from these particular proposals. I think they ought to be looked at with a great deal of care.
§ Lord MottistoneMy Lords, would my noble friend not agree that it is really rather strange that there is no mention of Soviet nuclear disarmament in the Question?
§ Lord SkelmersdaleMy Lords, the Government are not responsible for Questions on the Order Paper.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that, if these proposals are to be taken seriously, perhaps the British Government, along with our allies, would make a fair challenge to the Soviet Government as to what are their views upon them?
§ Lord SkelmersdaleYes, My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that very helpful supplementary question.
§ Lord Taylor of GryfeMy Lords, in view of the dependence of the Soviet economy on the imports of American wheat, and on the supply of European technology, to sustain their economy, is not this the right moment to press the Soviet Government for new initiatives in this direction of securing a greater degree of multilateral disarmament?
§ Lord SkelmersdaleMy Lords, I am afraid I am not prepared to commit myself on whether this is the right moment, but certainly the current multilateral negotiations going on between the EEC—both as a collective organisation and as individual 227 members—and the United States have this object partly in view.
§ The Earl of OnslowMy Lords, did my noble friend notice the possibly Freudian slip of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins of Putney, when he said that the Soviet Peace Committee was an organ of the Soviet Government? Does it not debase the value of the world disarmament campaign if it gets into bed with such odd fellows, who seem to be part of the same Government which went into Afghanistan?
§ Lord SkelmersdaleMy Lords, I was a little thrown by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins' supplementary question, in that I would have thought it was an argument against proposals coming from the Peace Committee rather than for them.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, is it not the case that the fact that the proposals were originally drafted by my noble friend, and were subsequently endorsed by the Peace Committee in the presence of a Soviet Minister, indicates that the Soviet Government and my noble friend are in accord? It only remains for the Government to get into accord with my noble friend and then the Government could find themselves in the search for peace with the Soviet Union. Is not that something devoutly to be wished? Is it not desirable that the Government should find itself, if it can, on common ground with the Soviet Union, so that the world becomes a more peaceful place?
§ Lord SkelmersdaleMy Lords, to make the world a more peaceful place is, quite definitely, the objective of us all, wherever we sit and wherever we may reside. However, the information imparted to the House by the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, on his drafting of the original communiqué came to light and was given to your Lordships' House after I had answered the supplementary question of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins. So I answered both questions at the time and in the light of what was presented to me.
§ Lord SoamesMy Lords, may I suggest to my noble friend that he does not waste too much time examining these proposals? If the Russians really wanted to seek a reduction of tension and an increase in disarmament there is plenty of opportunity for them to put forward such proposals without using the Peace Committee as a stalking horse, let alone the noble Lord, Lord Brockway.
§ Lord SkelmersdaleMy Lords, I am grateful for parts of that supplementary question by my noble friend, and I shall bear his advice in mind.
§ Lord BrockwayMy Lords, is the Minister aware that there are many issues on which I am not in accord with the Soviet Government and that I so expressed myself when I was in Moscow?
§ Lord SkelmersdaleI am sure that that is the case, my Lords.