HL Deb 29 November 1982 vol 436 cc1064-6

2.58 p.m.

Baroness Masham of Ilton

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what progress has been made in the field of health and safety in penal establishments, especially relating to polyurethane mattresses and smoke masks.

Lord Elton

My Lords, the Government give great emphasis to health and safety matters of all kinds in penal establishments. We have issued smoke protection hoods to all closed cellular establishments, for use by prison officers in rescuing prisoners and others from smoke-filled cells. We are continuing our search for a more fire retardant prison mattress, and recent research leads us to be hopeful of success.

Baroness Masham of Ilton

My Lords, in thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask whether I heard correctly when he referred to "hoods"? If that is so, what make and what type of hoods are being used? Furthermore, in view of the severe pressures of overcrowding in our prisons, may I ask whether all penal establishments have a fire procedure, so that inmates and prison officers know where to go should there be a fire; and how often do fire drills take place?

Lord Elton

My Lords, the mask is the Draeger Parat, produced by Draeger Safety Limited. There are fire drills in all prison establishments. I could not tell the noble Baroness with what frequency they are put into action, because it will vary from case to case. But this is an aspect of the inspections carried out by Her Majesty's Inspectorate, the reports of which are published. The noble Baroness may have noticed that occasionally this is the subject of comment by the inspectorate, so she may be confident that these matters are taken care of.

Baroness Birk

My Lords, I wonder whether the Minister can assist us further on the remark he made about the mattresses. I think I am right in understanding him to say that research is being carried out into something which is not so inflammable, but is it not true that on the market at the moment there are a great many mattresses which one can buy which are not inflammable? How long a period is this research going to take, and would it not be better, in the meantime, to produce a mattress which is not made of polyurethane and put that to use?

Lord Elton

My Lords, there are at present on the market no mattresses suitable for use in prisons by reason of their non-combustibility. There are a lot of safer mattresses if the people who use them are merely going to drop a lighted cigarette or match on the cover, but prisoners who wish to set fire to their mattresses can tear them apart, and it is the content which also has to be treated. As to the research, I am confident within reasonable limits that tenders will be invited next month for a new specification now in preparation.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, in furtherance of the point raised by the noble Baroness, is the noble Lord aware that, in industry, health and safety is one of the finest examples of joint co-operation between management and skilled artisans and that much has come out of it; and, with particular regard to emergencies, for which drills are practised because of this co-operation, would it not be wise, not to say even prudent, that this sort of co-operation should exist in penal establishments and other places of a similar character?

Lord Elton

My Lords, we have a staff of six safety officers at the national headquarters and a safety committee at every prison establishment. I think that that is just as good as what goes on in industry.

Lord Brockway

My Lords, while appreciating the points made by the noble Baroness and the noble Lord's response to them, would the noble Lord not agree that the greatest danger to health and safety in prisons is the appalling overcrowding, leading to grossly unhygienic conditions and to frustration, in turn leading to violence? Will the Government reconsider their refusal to propose an amnesty to many categories of non-violent prisoner in order to relieve this impossible situation?

Lord Elton

My Lords, I will not weary your Lordships with a long, detailed list of what we are doing about increasing the provision for the prison service and improving conditions there, in a very difficult situation. But, no, my Lords, we do not think it is the function of Government to override the decisions of the Judiciary in order to unload the prisons from time to time. There is provision to do this in an emergency, and that is all it is provided for.

Lord Hale

My Lords, is the noble Lord not aware that the Judiciary has been fully occupied for a considerable time in overriding its own decisions and in setting up committees to define words and to investigate? There is in fact a very interesting discussion set down for next week on this matter. Will he also remember that the work he is doing in connection with the prison service also wants tying up with many other forms of public activity, including, for example, hospitals? Will he bear in mind that the use of polyurethane has been exposed as terribly dangerous, and that the necessity for an adequate substitute in many spheres of activity is growing more and more urgent?

Lord Elton

My Lords, as to the first part of the noble Lord's question, I think it was a little wide of that on the Order Paper. As to the second, as I have already said, we have put a great deal of urgent effort into finding alternative materials, and we expect to put specifications out to tender within the next month.