§ 2.53 p.m.
§ The Earl of LauderdaleMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will state the amount of National Health Service expenditure in Scotland in the years 1978–79 and 1981–82 respectively both in the money of the day and in real terms.
§ Lord LyellYes, my Lords, In 1978–79 total expenditure on the National Health Service in Scotland was £883 million; last year it was £1,517 million. These figures are respectively, at November 1980 prices, £1,355 million and £1,411 million.
§ The Earl of LauderdaleMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. Would he not agree that this represents a very substantial increase not only in money terms but in real terms? Can he say what is the percentage improvement?
§ Lord LyellMy Lords, it is something over 4 per cent. I understand that to the nearest decimal point it is 4.1 per cent. We believe that this is, indeed, a real improvement and we are very grateful for the support of my noble friend.
§ The Earl of LauderdaleMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for that further information. Would he not agree that that figure might come in very handy for this afternoon's debate? Would he not also agree that it tends to refute some of the arrant nonsense which is spoken from the other side and elsewhere about the effect of so-called cuts of the health services?
§ Lord LyellMy Lords, I am very grateful for the forthright and robust support of my noble friend, but I am a little worried as to which debate he refers—whether it be the first debate or the second.
§ Lord Wells-PestellMy Lords, is the noble Lord in a position to say how many hospitals have been closed in Scotland since this Government have been in power; how many wards have been closed and how many other medical institutions have been closed in Scotland as a result of shortage of money?
§ Lord LyellMy Lords, I believe that that question is in danger of going a little wide of the original Question.
§ Lord LyellMy Lords, noble Lords' opinions are their own; I shall attempt to answer the question of the noble Lord. I am afraid that I do not have precise answers to the three questions which the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, has asked me, but I shall write to him.
§ The Earl of LauderdaleMy Lords, on the therapeutic qualities of the whisky debate to which allusion was made indirectly, can my noble friend say whether he has comparable figures for general expenditure on the social services?
§ Lord LyellMy Lords, indeed I do have them and I am very grateful to my noble friend for asking that question. For the same period as that in which there was a 4.1 per cent. increase in real terms, the net current expenditure has increased in real terms in Scotland by 11 per cent. for social work, as far as that is defined. However, I would correct one point that my noble friend made. I wonder whether the therapeutic effect comes from the debate on whisky or from the substance itself.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, is it not lucky chance that the noble Lord happened to have that answer so handy? As his planting is so successful, will he not transfer his attentions to horticulture?
§ Lord LyellMy Lords, I am no green fingered Lord in Waiting, but certainly I think the noble Lord would agree that fortune flies with the brave.
§ Lord Elwyn-JonesMy Lords, when general election Questions come up could there be some machinery for the sounding of a trumpet or something of that kind?
§ Lord LyellMy Lords, I shall make arrangements through the usual channels for trumpets to be sounded, but of course in line with your Lordships' usual decorum.
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, as long as it is not Trumpingtons!
§ Lord GlenamaraMy Lords, how much longer are the Government going to trot out these entirely misleading figures which seek to show that there has been an increase in real terms? They are completely inaccurate and misleading without also bringing into the equation the growth in population and the increase in unemployment since this Government came into office. To quote the figures by themselves is entirely misleading.
§ Lord LyellMy Lords, the noble Lord is of course entitled to his opinion, but I believe that the rest of your Lordships will agree that we have answered the Question which was set out on the Order Paper.
§ The Earl of LauderdaleMy Lords, would my noble friend not agree that the implication that the population has grown 11 per cent. in one year is very unlikely to be true and is another example of inaccurate propaganda from the other side?
§ Lord LyellYes, my Lords.