§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they agree with the retiring president of the Assistant Masters' and Mistresses' Association that school-children should be invited to consider how to remove the threat of nuclear war through peace studies.
§ The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Young)My Lords, there is everything to be said for introducing school pupils to political facts and values, at appropriate stages in their education and in a fair and balanced way. What is more doubtful is whether activities described as peace studies should take priority over the many other claims on curriculum time. In any event, what the school offers should always be education not indoctrination.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether she has read the same report as I have mentioned in my Question, in which Miss Barbara Hall, the retiring president of the Assistant Masters' and Mistresses' Association, said at the annual conference of that association that children should be invited to consider how to remove the threat of nuclear war? Would the noble Baroness agree that this is an important part of the education of children and young adults? If so, will she use her influence within the Government to foster this form of education?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I have seen a press report of what is stated to be the views of the outgoing president of the Assistant Masters' and Mistresses' Association. I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Hatch, that any contentious area of the curriculum must always be taught in an accurate and balanced way, and that in our devolved system of education it is to local education authorities and to head teachers that the decisions fall as to how the time of the curriculum is used.
§ Lord BeloffMy Lords, would the noble Baroness the Minister agree that, irrespective of the bona fides of the assistant mistresses in question, it is very doubtful whether children have much to contribute to the solution of a problem to which the best minds in many countries are devoting themselves? Is it therefore not simply a case of using this as another peg to enable CND propaganda to enter the schools?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I would agree with much of what my noble friend Lord Beloff has said. I think the most important thing is that the valuable time that children spend in schools should be used so that they are well educated and therefore able to get jobs in future life.
§ Lord BeswickMy Lords, following what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Beloff, is it not the case that if children fail to find a solution to the nuclear problem it puts them on a par with their elders?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, for his intervention.
§ Lord Balfour of InchryeMy Lords, if there is ever to be any instruction, could we be quite sure that it includes peace through strength?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I understand that the National Union of Teachers suggested to the Foreign Office Ministers that there was a need in the schools for balanced, factual information about disarmament, and after giving notice to the local education authorities the Foreign Office has distributed just such material linking it to the recent United Nations Special Session on Disarmament, so that both sides of the case are put.
§ Baroness DavidMy Lords, is the Minister aware that the recent Youth Service report, which was published only about four weeks ago, made a case for much more political education for young people? And surely peace studies would come within the general realm of political education?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, there are schools where political studies are taught, and I have no doubt there are many instances in the teaching of history, geography, and English where political matters are raised. What is important in all this is that children should not be used by adults in this matter and should not be subject to any form of indoctrination.
§ Lord Clifford of ChudleighMy Lords, will the noble Baroness bear in mind the effect of the Peace Pledge Union before the last war in encouraging Hitler to start the last war, and see the follow-on from that in what CND are trying to do now?
§ Baroness YoungYes, my Lords; that is an important point.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that we are talking about one of the greatest facets of our constitution, of which we are rightly proud? Are the Government saying not so much, to quote the Bible, "out of the mouths of babes and sucklings", as that they are afraid of the babes and sucklings? Does she recall that at one of our great universities before the war the students passed a resolution saying that they would not fight for king and country, but that this did not apply to the mass of ordinary people? Surely we have enough confidence in ourselves and our children to allow them to realise that this is a serious matter and they ought to be permitted to consider it even at an early age. There has been nothing like it before in the history of mankind.
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, the whole question of peace and disarmament is a delicate, sensitive issue. Many children are far too young to understand it, to make any reasonable comment about these matters at all. A tremendous responsibility, therefore, rests with adults in the teaching profession and others who subject them to indoctrination, and that is a responsibility not only to the children but to the country.
§ Lord Alexander of PotterhillMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness the Leader of the House to reassure me, unless I am misinformed, that political education is not within the terms of the 1944 Act?
§ Baroness YoungI am sure that what the noble Lord, Lord Alexander, says about the 1944 Act may be true, my Lords, but there is no doubt that political studies take place in some schools and come up in other subjects of the curriculum.
§ Lord Harmar-NichollsMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that, as neither this House nor the Government have any responsibility for the president of the Assistant Masters' and Mistresses' Association, the Question on the Order Paper is irrelevant? Does my noble friend have any idea when the noble Lord, Lord Hatch, will run out of irrelevant Questions? Will she bear in mind that this one, in the context, gets very near to being an abuse of the procedures of this House?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, in our devolved system of education, what is said by leading members of the educational world is, naturally, of interest. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Hatch, put down an almost identical Question last July, I hope he will feel, after this Question, that it is not necessary to table another one on the same subject for a long time.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, in relation to what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Harmar-Nicholls, may I ask the noble Baroness the Leader of the House if she is aware that, while this remains a free House, my noble friend has the right to ask Questions of this kind?
§ Lord Harmar-NichollsIt is still irrelevant.
§ Lord BrockwayMy Lords, would the noble Baroness agree that this is the most important issue for children and the future of their lives? Would it not be possible, apart from any propaganda for one point of view or the other, for older students, those aged 16 onwards, who are deeply concerned about this issue, to be able to hear both points of view or any point of view on this subject so that they may reach their own decisions?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, everybody in this country is concerned about the issues of war and peace, but on the question of the school curriculum I have nothing further to add to the answers I have already given to other noble Lords. Perhaps I might suggest that, now that we have spent nine minutes on this Question, it would be an appropriate time to move on to the next Question.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyBefore we do that—
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyWill the Leader of the House—
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, we have spent a very long time on this Question and I think it is the wish of the House, as supplementary questions have been taken from all parts, that we should now move on to the next Question.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMay I ask a final supplementary?
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyI must—
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, if the noble Lord, Lord Hatch, has another question to ask, he would have an opportunity to put down another Question on the Order Paper on a future occasion.