Wages Councils (Northern Ireland) Order 1982

HL Deb 11 November 1982 vol 436 cc361-4

3.37 p.m.

Viscount Long rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 21st October be approved.

The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this order was originally laid before this House on 20th May 1982 and was then considered by the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills, as is the procedure with orders of pure consolidation. The joint committee were satisfied that the order was one of pure consolidation in that it consolidated the Wages Councils Act (Northern Ireland) 1945 and the enactments amending that Act. The committee, however, in its report of 25th June recommended that Section 19 of the Wages Councils Act (Northern Ireland) 1945, which deals with schemes for holidays with pay, should be repealed in the order, as it served no practical purpose and there is no record of it ever having been used. On consideration of the advice of the joint committee, the order was withdrawn and relaid with the repeal of Section 19 included. The inclusion of that one amendment means that the order is no longer, strictly speaking, pure consolidation, but it has the effect of making a more coherent statement of the relevant law. The joint committee stated in the course of its report: After careful consideration, the Committee are of the opinion that the repeal of Section 19 would have the desirable result of achieving a more satisfactory and tidier consolidation of law and that an Order to that effect, although not pure consolidation, would be likely to commend itself to Parliament for that reason.

In the light of the change based on the recommendations of the joint committee, the order now represents a sensible statement of the law. I beg to move.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 21st October be approved.—(Viscount Long.)

Lord Bishopston

My Lords, I am sure we are grateful for that explanation of the order, which is not controversial and is a consolidation measure, as the noble Viscount pointed out. He mentioned the repeal of Section 19. I note that there are provisions dealing with orders regulating remuneration and holidays; that comes under Sections 10 and 11. They are important sections regarding powers to fix remuneration and holidays by order. They include the publication of prescribed notices to all affected by the proposals and the submission of written representations regarding them. There are also, of course, powers of enforcement.

I understand that some aspects of those sections are new, insofar as they apply to other parts of the United Kingdom and are now to apply to Northern Ireland, particularly concerning backdating. It might be helpful for those interested if the Minister were to comment particularly on the last points I raised, about the applicability of the order and backdating. If these provisions are new, but follow the practice and precedents of other places, I presume they will be acceptable as part of the order. May we be told what consultations have taken place with what bodies and the results of those consultations? Apart from those points, I think the House would wish to support the order.

Lord Hampton

My Lords, I too thank the noble Viscount for introducing the order, and I listened with interest to the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Bishopston. Perhaps I might take this opportunity, the first open to me, to wish the noble Lord, Lord Blease, well, now that he is no longer speaking from the Front Bench. He is the sort of person who gives one faith in the future of Northern Ireland. The order is quite technical, and when the word "consolidation" is used, even with some restraint, I feel inclined to leave it to more eminent heads than mine, and I see no reason for not accepting the order.

Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge

My Lords, I endorse the expression of appreciation of the noble Lord, Lord Hampton, of the performance of the noble Lord, Lord Blease, on the Front Bench. I was a Northern Ireland Minister at its nastiest time, when Lord Blease was then head of the local industrial organisation, the trade unions there. The trade unions were on our side and the workers in general were not, but he was enormously helpful and it has always been a pleasure to work with him. My only comment on the order is that Section 19 is concerned with holidays with pay. It has been removed. What effect, if any, has that had on holidays with pay?

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

As this is not strictly a consolidation order, my Lords, I think I am strictly in order in asking my noble friend a general question arising out of it. As he will be aware, Ministers at the Department of Employment have in recent months on several occasions said they were reviewing the system of wages councils and considering whether, at a time of high unemployment—and that is perhaps, alas, particularly relevant to Northern Ireland—it made sense to continue a great many of the wages councils. I appreciate that it would be difficult, though not perhaps impossible, to move separately in respect of Northern Ireland. But could my noble friend give an assurance that the continuation, by way of this order, of the wages council system in Northern Ireland does not indicate any relaxation at all by the Secretary of State for Employment of his reconsideration of the wages council system as a whole?

Viscount Long

My Lords, I wish, first, to join the noble Lords, Lord Hampton and Lord Donaldson, in the tributes they paid to the noble Lord, Lord Blease. While I was in the Province recently I found that his name stood very high in relation to the work he carried out there, and had done, for many years. The noble Lord was in his place a moment ago and at the outset I wish to join in the thanks expressed to him by those who worked with him over there. I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Bishopston, for his kind intervention on the order, and to say to him that both Articles 10 and 11 are in fact not new. Article 10—power to fix remuneration and holidays—and Article 11—effect and enforcement of orders made under Article 10 of the Draft Wages Councils (Northern Ireland) Order 1982—are a restatement of Sections 10 and 11 of the Wages Councils Act (Northern Ireland) 1945, as amended by the provisions of Schedule I to the Industrial Relations (Northern Ireland) Order 1982, which came into effect in May this year. The change effected by the Industrial Relations Order simply enables the wages councils, and not the Department of Economic Development, to make orders relating to remuneration and holidays.

The noble Lord, Lord Bishopston, secondly, asked me whether there had been consultation on this consolidation. In view of the order being one of consolidation, with the exception of the repeal of Section 19 of the 1945 Act, no consultation was in fact necessary. However, as I have already mentioned, the order was in any case considered by the Joint Committee on Consolidation.

My noble friend asked whether, with unemployment as serious as it is in Northern Ireland—even though this is an amendment to the order—the department, through payments and through the wages councils, would continue to look after those who are in need. I shall take that point to my right honourable friend in another place—

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, if my noble friend will allow me to interrupt him, I would say that he has misunderstood my question. I asked whether the continuance in Northern Ireland, by means of the order, of the wages councils system in general indicated any change in the policy hitherto declared by the Department of Employment of reviewing the wages councils system with a view to reducing the number of wages councils.

Viscount Long

My Lords, as I understand it, there is no sign of that at the moment. The noble Lord, Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge, made remarks about payments, and I think that that still goes. He will remember from when he was in Northern Ireland that this does not in any case affect payments at all.

Lord Bishopston

My Lords, before the noble Viscount sits down will he comment on the backdating aspect of Articles 10 and 11, which I thought were new? I should also like to join in the tributes paid by other noble Lords to my noble friend Lord Blease for his advocacy of matters of interest and concern to Northern Ireland. I am sure that whoever is appointed to deal with the work that he has been handling will find it a very difficult task to come up to his standards.

Viscount Long

My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord for not dealing with the point about the backdating. I wonder whether I may let him know about it later.

On Question, Motion agreed to.