NHS Staff: Pay Dispute (Hansard, 25 May 1982)

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Lord Trefgarne)
No, my Lords. The conduct of pay negotiations in the National Health Service is a matter for the Whitley Councils. The Government consider that the pay offers made by the Councils are both fair and realistic.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that if there is one thing which is totally unacceptable to the medical profession, the nursing profession, and probably the people of this country, it is the last part of the noble Lord's reply? Would he be prepared to ask his right honourable friend to consider sending the issue to ACAS in the hope of getting it resolved?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, if the noble Lord is suggesting that this matter should go to arbitration, I would have to disagree with him, because within the context of the cash limits an increased pay offer would only mean a reduced service.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that he is confusing the activities and endeavours of ACAS with a court of arbitration? It does not necessarily follow that being referred to ACAS means that there is going to be some form of arbitration. That may come later. Often ACAS will resolve things without using the arbitration machinery.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, there is of course already existing machinery for these purposes within the Health Service. It is in any event, as I said, a matter for the various health authorities, but I am sure that any helpful suggestion from ACAS would be carefully considered by those bodies.

§ Lord Jacques
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that arbitration, both sides accepting the decision, is the best alternative to industrial action?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, as I said just now, arbitration is not a practical proposition in these circumstances, because, as I said, within the context of the cash limits 1068 which we must necessarily impose in this area, an increased pay offer, for example, could only mean a reduction in the standard of service.

§ Lord Rochester
My Lords, is it not greatly to be regretted that, in the absence of any general arrangements for determining pay in the public services, and when certain public servants have recently been awarded relatively high increases in their salaries, there appears to be no means by which this particular dispute can be referred to independent arbitration?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, the noble Lord is right to point to the lack of machinery for some of the purposes of pay determination in the public sector. That is why the Megaw inquiry, for example, which is looking into these matters in connection with the Civil Service, have been asked to make proposals, and why indeed my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has said that we would be willing to create appropriate machinery with respect to the nurses and midwives.

Lord Winstanley
My Lords, does the noble Lord accept that, perhaps because of their previous reluctance to take industrial action, health workers as a whole are among the lowest paid throughout Europe? In order to determine precisely where we in Britain stand on this matter, is the noble Lord in a position to tell the House how many health service workers are at present in receipt of the family income supplement, which the noble Lord knows is paid only to those who, in the light of their family commitments, would otherwise fall below the poverty level?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I doubt that very many health service workers are in receipt of the benefit to which the noble Lord refers. The average earnings, for example, of the ancillaries is of the region of £104 a week.

§ Lord Shinwell
My Lords, is it not asking too much at the present time to ask the Government to intervene in wage negotiations? Have we not got another dispute on our hands? Although I usually support the workers in their demand for higher standards of living, and will continue to do so, would they not mind deferring consideration of these negotiations and demands until we have dealt with the people 8,000 miles away?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, there is as so often, if I may say so, considerable merit in what the noble Lord has to say, but nonetheless a reasonable offer has been made through the Whitley Councils to these various groups of employees, and we hope that they will accept them.

§ Baroness Wootton of Abinger
My Lords, is the noble Lord's figure of £104 a week a compound of male wages and female wages, an average of the two, or does it refer solely to male wages?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, it is in fact the average earnings of a full-time male ancillary worker. A number of other workers in the health service are of course part time.

Lord Wallace of Coslany
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, although undertakings are given by unions in this regrettable industrial dispute that patient care will not be affected, it is inevitable that patient care will be affected however much help is given by administrative officers, and so on? I cannot understand the Government's attitude to this position, because nurses particularly should be dealt with as a special case. Secondly, the Government will not accept arbitration, will not agree to arbitration. The Government will not seek arbitration. This is the point. It is all very well—

Several noble Lords
Question!

Lord Wallace of Coslany
Is the Minister aware—and I am well able to take care of myself here without assistance from the Government side of the House—

Several noble Lords
Order!

Lord Wallace of Coslany
My Lords, is the Minister aware that it would appear that the Government are set on their course and will not do their best to try to resolve this regrettable dispute? Further, is the Minister aware that the Whitley Council have put forward a settlement which lines up with the Government's attitude? This is a matter of great importance. It is a matter that has happened before and must not happen again, and it is about time that the Government did not take advantage of nurses who, because of their membership of the Royal College of Nursing, do not take industrial action.

§ Lord Sandys
Questions should he as brief as possible, my Lords.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, the noble Lord asks that we make a special case of the nurses and midwives. We have indeed done just that. We have made available for that purpose extra funds—some £82 million—which has resulted in the enhanced offer to the nurses and midwives through their Whitley Council. As for the earlier part of the noble Lord's supplementary, about the difficulty of conducting industrial action in the health service without affecting patient care, he is quite right; it really is not possible, in our view, to conduct industrial action in the NHS, at any rate on the scale we saw last week, without affecting patient care. There was one example to which I would refer your Lordships, where the normal catering staff of 60 were replaced by only five people to serve meals in a certain hospital, and I fail to see how they could have provided a proper service.

Lord Winstanley
My Lords, as the Minister is apparently unaware of how many of these people receive family income supplement, may I ask him to arrange for his department to collect the information and then study it?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I will see if the information the noble Lord seeks is available and whether it can be provided to him and the House in a meaningful form. I doubt whether there are very many such people. A large number of workers in the health 1070 service are part-time workers, and others achieve at least the average earnings to which I referred.

§ Lord Blyton
My Lords, does the Minister think it possible that the nurses' case can be sent to the Top Salaries Review Body, which could then give an award of 21 per cent.?

§ Lord Trefgarne
No, my Lords.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that Britain's nurses, midwives and health workers do not want to indulge in the activities in which they have been compelled to indulge, and that their leaders are desperately keen to see that there is no escalation of the dispute? May I ask him to ask his right honourable friend not to commit himself in any way whatever but simply to say that he will consider sending the whole issue to ACAS—a course which, I am sure, would receive the approval of the nurses, their leaders and every other sane person?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I should perhaps say tha t the great majority of nurses have not so far indulged in industrial action and that, so far as I know, they do not intend to do so because, as I understand it, the rules of the Royal College of Nursing preclude that, although I gather that that may be a matter they are planning to consider. As for referring the matter to ACAS, as I said earlier, there is well-established machinery in the health service—namely, the Whitley Councils—for determining the pay of those who work in the health service, and that is the proper method to use.

§ Lord Sandys
My Lords, as we have spent 10 minutes on this Question, I suggest we move to the next one.