Nurses' Pay (Hansard, 13 May 1982)

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Lord Trefgarne)
My Lords, on 8th March the Government announced that an additional £63 million was to be made available for nurses' pay. This has enabled the management side of the nurses' and midwives' Whitley Council to make an offer representing 6.4 per cent. overall. The next meeting of this Whitley Council is scheduled for 8th June.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, while I thank the noble Lord for that reply, is he aware that the modified recommendations of the TSRB have made a total mockery and revealed the injustice of this Government's policies, in that top judges and admirals have an increase of around 14 per cent. while those who care and serve in the health service when the people of this country are sick and ill have been treated in a scandalous manner? Before indignation escalates too high, would the noble Lord be prepared to see his right honourable friend and to meet the leaders of the health service, in view of the anger felt at the acceptance of the modified TSRB recommendations?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, with respect to the noble Lord, I think that he over-eggs the pudding somewhat in regard to the announcements made yesterday which, in any event, have no relation to the health service, which is the subject of the Question on the Order Paper. I think the offer that has been made through the nurses' and midwives' Whitley Council is a very proper one and I hope that it will be accepted.

§ Lord Gisborough
My Lords, can my noble friend give the House some idea of the increase over the last two or three years for the nurses?

§ Lord Trefgarne
Yes, my Lords. It was something in excess of 50 per cent.

§ Lord Boothby
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that a widespread impression has been given to the public that the disparity between the increases now offered to the nurses and those to high civil servants, Members of Parliament, admirals, generals and so on is too great, and will the Government take some steps either to correct this impression or to explain it?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, the increase for Members of Parliament is, of course, 4 per cent., which is somewhat less than the latest offer to the nurses through their Whitley Council. As for the other matters to which the noble Lord refers, they really have no relation to this particular matter. But perhaps I may say that they were, of course, related to increases forgone in some years past.

§ Lord Wells-Pestell
My Lords, will the Minister not agree that, when he replies to his noble friend and says that the increases given to nurses over recent years amount to 50 per cent., that was because it was estab- 311 lished beyond all reasonable doubt that they were well behind the pay levels of other organisations?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I wonder who was responsible for that.

§ Lord Wells-Pestell
My Lords, will the noble Lord say Yes or No to my question—that they were well behind?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, there was indeed some catching up to be done, but the noble Lord and his colleagues had been in office for some years before that.

§ Lord Brockway
My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that we ought seriously to look at our priorities when we are considering income advances? Is it not the case that on Tuesday a high percentage increase was allowed to officials with top salaries, who do not need to spend it on necessities and can spend it on enjoyment, while the nurses, who perform the most essential service given to our community of curing illness and saving life, do not even have a wage which could meet first necessities, not to speak of enjoyment?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I do not think that the noble Lord accurately reflects the truth of the position. As I said earlier in response to one of my noble friends, the percentage increase that has been allowed to nurses in recent years is very substantial. With regard to other increases that have been announced recently in other areas, there was a very considerable element of catching up in those increases.

§ Viscount Hanworth
My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that the differentials in the Communist countries are very little, and possibly less than they are here, and that the hardest thing in the world is to decide exactly what differentials there should be between different kinds of work?

§ Lord Trefgarne
Yes, indeed, my Lords. Of course, these decisions are always very difficult and I cannot think that they have found a solution on the other side of the Iron Curtain.

Lord Paget of Northampton
My Lords, can the noble Lord tell us how the earnings of nurses compare with those of secretaries employed in the Houses of Parliament, both as to money and as to holidays?

§ Lord Trefgarne
Not without notice, my Lords. In any event, I am not responsible, nor are the Government, for what is paid to secretaries in the other place.

§ Lord Gisborough
My Lords, is my noble friend aware, in regard to the question of differentials, that the differential in China is approximately four; that the differential in the United Kingdom after tax is approximately six, and that the differential in Russia is approximately 40?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I accept the accuracy of my noble friend's observations, if that is what he says. I have no means of checking them, but I am not sure what inference to draw.

Lord Wallace of Coslany
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that it is no good him glossing over the top salaries review position? Is he further aware that there is considerable discord among nurses and threats of industrial action, which of course would be deplored? The noble Lord, Lord Boothby, is quite right in saying that at this time the announcement of the top salaries awards has made an impression on the public, and that this is a very important irritant factor in the negotiations in the industrial situation.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I did not seek to gloss over the announcements relating to other salaries, to which the noble Lord and other noble Lords have referred. But they do not relate to the Question which is upon the Order Paper and, in any event, different considerations apply.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the noble Lord the Minister aware that millions of our fellow citizens in Great Britain now suffer under the interventionist policy of this Government, which is just as interventionist as the policy in the Soviet Union? There is no free negotiation, they are held down—

Several noble Lords
Speech!

§ Lord Molloy
Is the noble Lord aware that there is no free negotiation and that they are dictated to by the Government? Is he further aware that, if he were to refer to his right honourable friend the feeling of employees within the National Health Service, he might then be prepared to see the leaders? Finally, is the noble Lord aware that some aspects of management are acting with what is almost a Polish junta attitude to some of those who are demonstrating, which could be serious—

Several noble Lords
Order!

§ Lord Molloy
—and would he put that to his right honourable friend?

Several noble Lords
Order!

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that all my right honourable friends are well aware of the strong views held by the members of the health service, and by others, in respect of this matter. But, of course, we have to establish an order of priority and, if additional funds were made available for a wage settlement now, that would mean a reduction in the level of services in the health service, which I do not think is what the noble Lord would wish.