The Personal Social Services: Expenditure 1978

§ Baroness Faithfull
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Lord Trefgarne)
My Lords, net expenditure on the personal social services in England and Wales increased in real terms over the previous year by about 4 per cent. in 1978–79, about 4½ per cent. in 1979–80 and about 2½ per cent. in 1980–81. Budgets for 1981–82 suggest that personal social services net expenditure will be at about the same level in real terms as in 1980–81.

§ Baroness Faithfull
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. Can he explain a rather perplexing position? In view of the fact that the figures for expenditure on personal social services have risen in real terms, how is it that in some—though not all—local authorities there has had to be a cut-back in the services provided?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, the answer to my noble friend is of course that the figure I gave was an average one. In a few cases local authorities have seen fit to reduce expenditure on these services because they have apprehended greater priorities elsewhere; but it is also true to say, of course, that some local authorities have increased their expenditure at rates greater than the ones I gave.

Lord Wallace of Coslany
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware—and the noble Baroness has to some extent underlined this—that statistics do not necessarily disclose the cold facts of life? I do not agree with the noble Lord when he says that "some" authorities—indicating a very few of them—have reduced services. I should like to know from him, if not now then at some future date, what in real terms has been the reduction in personal social services in most areas due to the Government's imposition of severe restraints on local authorities? In many areas the vital social services affecting the elderly and the handicapped have been cut, and Kent is one of the worst examples of the lot.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, the noble Lord is, of 219 course, right when he says that services have been reduced in a few areas, but if mathematics is correct the majority—that is to say the average from the figures that I gave—have in fact increased their total provision on these services in real terms, in accordance with the percentages that I gave in the original Answer.

Lord Wallace of Coslany
My Lords, will not the noble Lord come straight at some time or other and, instead of playing around with statistics and percentages, give us the actual facts of the cuts that have been imposed in the various vital services?—because it is a fact that these have been imposed and the noble Baroness, Lady Faithfull, has more or less agreed with me on the point.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I am not denying that services have declined in some areas, and of course the noble Lord has put his finger on a particular area where a particular service has been reduced; but the House will appreciate that local authorities have a wide range of discretion as to the order of priorities which they apply to the different services they provide in their particular area. In some areas where the total expenditure over all the services may have increased, it is still possible to see one particular service which has been reduced for probably very good local reasons.

Lord Wallace of Coslany
My Lords, I am sorry to come back again, but is it not the fact that these cuts have been actually imposed? The real trouble is the Secretary of State for the Environment and the way he has treated local authorities.

§ Lord Trefgarne
No my Lords; we certainly have imposed global restraints upon local authority expenditure with which the noble Lord and the House will be familiar; but of course it has been necessary to contain the very sharp rate of growth of local authority expenditure which we inherited when we came into office.

§ Lord Wells-Pestell
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord the Minister whether he has read the reports on research done by the Association of Directors of Social Services, where they set out very clearly the number of cuts that have taken place? I suspect that the noble Lord has not read them: otherwise he would not use the word "few".

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I have to confess to your Lordships that, having only recently come into my present responsibilities, I have not yet been able to catch up with all the reading that I should have done but I hope to do so before too long. The fact is that some local authorities, for perfectly proper political reasons, draw attention to certain cuts that they have had to make, but they sometimes fail to mention the growth in other areas.

§ Lord Alexander of Potterhill
My Lords, is it not a fact that the figures relating to a particular service have no relevance, since, in the nature of the financial relationship between central and local government, the local authority is free to spend money not on the service for which it was intended to be allocated?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I would not agree that any particular figure has no relevance. It certainly does have relevance in the context in which the figure is prepared, but it is true to say that figures can sometimes be used for purposes other than those for which they were intended.

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, would my noble friend the Minister agree that, whatever the situation, cuts or increases, it would be right to emphasise the very good work done by those who work in the social services and who sometimes suffer from adverse comments?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I would certainly endorse what my noble friend says. The work that is carried on by people working in these services is, in almost every case, exemplary.

The Personal Social Services: Expenditure 1978–81