HL Deb 06 May 1982 vol 429 cc1259-62

3.14 p.m.

Lord Chelwood

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, now that the Camp David process is exhausted, they will take the lead in the European Community aimed at a joint initiative with the United States to achieve Israeli security and recognition by her Arab neighbours within the pre-1967 armistice lines, as well as Palestinian self-determination.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, while the Israeli withdrawal from Sinai has been successfully completed, the autonomy talks based on the Camp David Agreements continue. The United States clearly have an important role to play in the next stage of the search for peace. We and our partners in the Ten are ready to work with the United States, and all the parties concerned, towards a comprehensive settlement, which we believe should be founded on the Venice principles.

Lord Chelwood

My Lords, has my noble friend had an opportunity to study two interesting American reports recently produced? I refer, first, to The Path to Peace, whose four signatories include Mr. Philip Klutznik, President Emeritus of the World Jewish Congress, which flatly stated that until the Palestinian right to statehood has been fairly faced there is no prospect of peace. Secondly an equally important report, which reached similar conclusions, was written by Senator Charles Percy, the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, who, after visiting 14 Arab countries, including Syria—and of course going to Israel—found a widespread willingness to recognise Israel's right to exist behind secure and recognised borders, which in his opinion would have to exclude all land occupied or annexed in 1967, or since then.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I must confess that I have not seen in the flesh the two reports to which my noble friend refers. However I have read synopses of both of them, and in the main the Government agree with them, with of course the everlasting proviso that both sides recognise one another in this dispute.

Baroness Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the House will very much welcome his statement that Camp David is not exhausted and that negotiations are proceeding between Egypt and Israel about Palestinian autonomy? Is the noble Lord also aware that in all parts of the House there will be great sadness that this particular subject should be discussed on the day, and at the time, of the funeral of Lord Janner, who contributed so much to our knowledge of the Middle East?

Lord Skelmersdale

Yes, my Lords, we on these Benches would certainly like to echo the sentiments of the noble Baroness opposite. For my part I find it very strange to be discussing this subject without the benefit of the noble Lord's advice.

Baroness Gaitskell

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the Camp David agreement is not exhausted and that negotiations are continuing between Israel and Egypt regarding Palestinian autonomy? In fact, the negotiations that are going on are very healthy and very strong.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I am sorry if I have been misunderstood. I did not mean to give the impression that Camp David was not continuing. It is by no means finished, it is still going on.

Lord Paget of Northampton

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that we are not any longer a Middle Eastern power, that the European Community are not any longer a Middle Eastern power, and that we shall earn the gratitude of the Middle East and of our American ally if we mind our own business and leave them to mind theirs?

Lord Skelmersdale

I would not agree with that, my Lords.

Lord Mayhew

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the Camp David autonomy talks have been going on for several years and that no progress whatever has been made? Is he also aware that the Foreign Ministers of the Community will be meeting this weekend to discuss the report of their president on his return from a visit to the Middle East? Will he give the House the assurance that the British Government will take an initiative, so that peace can be achieved in the Middle East?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, as I think I have already made clear, we and the Ten stick very firmly to the Venice principles, and fresh ideas from all the parties concerned are, I would agree, now needed if progress is to be made towards a comprehensive peace settlement. We and our European partners are ready to play our part in this, and we keep our policy constantly under review in the light of developments. However, as I said at the beginning of the Question, we continue to believe that the principles of the Venice declaration provide the best option at the moment.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, bearing in mind the remarks of my noble friend on the Front Bench, is the noble Lord aware that in all the lands of the Middle East that are involved there are very many people who would welcome, and indeed support, the submission made in his supplementary question by the noble Lord, Lord Chelwood? If we can get this point on the agenda for talks between the Government and the EEC, and if the endeavours of all people who think along these lines, in all the countries involved, and in Europe, can be combined, that would help us to move towards the ultimate achievement, which is peace for all in the Middle East.

Lord Skelmersdale

Yes, my Lords, I would agree with that, but of course the great problem is that politics and people all over the world do not necessarily go together.

The Earl of Onslow

My Lords, could my noble friend give some encouragement to a revival of the Prince Fahad proposals? It appears possible that they could be revised and that seems to me an implicit recognition by the Arab side of the State of Israel provided that Israel, in turn, recognises some rights of the Palestinians.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, yes. We are delighted that the Fahad principles ever came about. As a Government, we are very pleased that diplomatic activity should come from the area concerned; and this is right. I would say to my noble friend that any reconvening of, for example, the Fahad Conference is a matter for the Arab States themselves.

Lord Brockway

My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that, while we have had our minds on the Falkland Islands, serious dangers to peace have arisen in the Middle East? While welcoming any action by the European Community to secure the double object of security for the Israel frontiers and self-determination for the Palestinian people, would the Government now consider whether it is not desirable to recall an international conference on this subject where world pressure, both West and East, could be exerted to reach a solution on these lines?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I am not sure that the time is yet ripe to call a world conference in the conditions the world is in at the moment. I will take advice on the point raised by the noble Lord.

Baroness Gaitskell

My Lords, is the Minister aware that under Article A.I, Israel, Jordan and the representatives of the Palestinian people should participate in negotiations on the resolution of the Palestinian problem in all its aspects? The current negotiations between Israel and Egypt are clearly in line with this arrangement and are aimed at negotiating the details. Is the noble Lord aware that these negotiations—

Several noble Lords

Reading!

Baroness Gaitskell

My Lords, am I going to be allowed to speak at all?

Lord Peart

Carry on.

Baroness Gaitskell

The current negotiations between Israel and Egypt are clearly in line with the arrangement and are aimed at negotiating the details for a transitional arrangement on the West Bank for a period not exceeding five years.

Lord Skelmersdale

Yes, my Lords, I am aware of that; but I think the noble Baroness has come to rather greater conclusions than the facts warrant in this matter.