HL Deb 25 March 1982 vol 428 cc1062-4

3.16 p.m.

Lord Shinwell

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, following the efforts of the Prime Minister to obtain satisfaction on the financial contribution to the EEC and the efforts of responsible Ministers associated with agriculture and fishing rights to safeguard United Kingdom interests, which appear to have, so far, ended in failure, they will inform this House what time they consider should be allowed to elapse before the attitude of the EEC is accepted.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Trefgarne)

My Lords, in none of these areas has the Government's efforts been a failure. On our financial contribution, we succeeded on 30th May 1980 in securing reductions of over £1,500 million in our net contributions for 1980 and 1981, and we are now negotiating arrangements for 1982 and beyond. On both agriculture and fisheries, the Government have worked tirelessly to safeguard United Kingdom interests and are pressing for lasting reforms and improvements in both fields.

Lord Shinwell

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the statement he has just made is the first frank admission by a member of the Government that our expectations have not been fulfilled? Has he taken note of the erosion of our fishing industry, of the escalation and prosperity of French agriculture in comparison with our own and, over and above that, the frightful humiliation to which the Prime Minister has been subjected in seeking to obtain from the EEC and those associated with it a reasonable financial arrangement?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I do not accept for a moment that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has been humiliated. On the contrary, we have some very remarkable achievements to our credit in this area and I believe further achievements are likely to he gained before long. As for the difficulties with the fishing policy and agricultural policy, the Government's views on those are well known and we are working hard to correct those problems.

Lord Gladwyn

My Lords, would the Government not agree that it is in any case quite wrong to refer to "the attitude of the EEC" as if the Community is something outside ourselves, to which we do not belong and is, as such, pursuing a policy hostile to this Government? Surely the question is rather whether a proposal, put up by the Commission, will be eventually approved by a consensus in the Council of Ministers?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, the proposal which emerged at the meeting earlier this week is one that has some good aspects to it and some less good aspects. The whole matter is to be discussed again at a special meeting of Foreign Ministers on 3rd April. We very much hope that substantial progress will be made on that occasion.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the polls suggest that most people want to withdraw from the EEC? Is he further aware that the Labour Party is the only party that advocates this course, and is it not to be hoped that this message has reached Hillhead?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, at the last occasion upon which the British people were formally consulted as to their views on the Common Market, a substantial majority said that they favoured our continued membership. Those who now propose our withdrawal should ponder on the amount of exports, for example, which we make to the European Community—something like half our total.

Lord Shinwell

My Lords, will the Minister be kind enough to reply to the main point of my Question, namely, how long is it going to be before Her Majesty's Government obtain from the EEC complete satisfaction on the points raised in my Question?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I would be reluctant to put a fixed time limit on these matters, because we move forward by consensus and to impose some artificial time barrier is not, in my view, helpful to reaching that consensus.

Lord Hankey

My Lords, would the Government consider that it is really dangerous that a large part of the British public should judge the EEC and our membership of it by the price of butter, the size of the wine lake and other details? Are there not much broader considerations which ought to be brought to public notice from time to time which would in fact make it obvious that it would be a disaster for this country to leave the EEC? Should not the Government perhaps be conducting an information campaign on this subject?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I certainly agree it would be a disaster if we withdrew from the EEC. On the other hand, it is a mistake, I think, to belittle unduly some of the problems which exist; for example, the creation of surpluses within the agricultural policy, and the wine lagoon to which the noble Lord referred.

Lord Campbell of Alloway

My Lords, can my noble friend the Minister confirm that when consideration is given to the Genscher Colombo proposals by Her Majesty's Government this will not import any new legal obligation that adversely affects our fishing interests?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, with respect, that goes fairly wide of the Question on the Order Paper; but certainly, as I said in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, the common fishery policy does have some difficulties for us and we are working to eliminate these problems.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, does not the noble Lord agree that the CAP and the fisheries policy together take up almost 80 per cent. of the entire EEC budget and that that is the realistic way we have to look at it? All the other things are promises which have not materialised; we have not enjoyed the great benefits which it was said we would enjoy if we joined the EEC. Does not the noble Lord agree that successive Governments have done their best to get a square deal for Britain and that it has not been achieved, that we were cheated at the beginning, and that successive Governments, and this Government, despite their endeavours, are not getting a square deal, or even a reasonable response?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I would not choose to use the almost inflammatory words which the noble Lord has chosen to use. But certainly I cannot deny that the Community budget is very unbalanced by the size of the agricultural budget, although it is worth pointing out that the net percentage of the Community budget taken by the agricultural policy has declined since we took office.

Lord Ardwick

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the vigour with which the Government have pursued their case, quite rightly, has nevertheless convinced many people that the Community is unfair to us, and the Government are now the victim, and we are all the victim, of the Government's very justified propaganda on this?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, the Government said right from the outset that there were aspects of the Community which we thought ought to be corrected. Indeed, our Community partners early on agreed that there was a problem in relation to our own budget contribution. That problem was largely solved for the earlier years, and we now hope that the problems we have been discussing with regard to agriculture and fisheries can likewise be resolved in the same spirit of constructive compromise.